Martin Montoya

[BBZ8800]

Seemed like a time where he could've been a solid Replacement for Alves. Now it seems he can't even get a game with Inter because he hasn't been very good, makes me wonder what did happen with this guy?

Is he that bad?

There are 2 kind of Barca's rejects:
1. players who are not good enough for Barca, but who could be good in other top teams, like Alexis, Fabregas recently
2. on the other hand, there are players for whom our fans at first think that they are good enough for Barca. Later they turn out to be not good enough, but than people think: he is not good enough here, but he could play in Arsenal, Liverpool or other top teams (there were similar talks about Montoya, and for example, Bartra)
= but then, after a few years, it often turns out that a player:
a) was never good enough for Barca's level
b) but that he ALSO isn't good enough for any top team, and that a player is just a mediocre player for some midtable teams in Spain, England, Italy or Germany.

Montoya is probably one of those players.
I personally believe that also Bartra, Deulofeu, Adama and a lot of other youths are "similar" players.

Some fans blamed our board, but very likely these players will never succeed in any of best European teams.
NOT because we didn't give them chances and because coaches didn't have faith in them, but because they are just not good enough.

 

[Stric]

Solid points being made here. This also included our front line, as well. Alexis got to start damn near every game and it took him until January to score his first La Liga goal. In the early round of the Copa he missed no less than four easy goalscoring chances and at many points throughout the season seemed like he could barely even run in a straight line. Compared to Tello, who was putting in some solid performances whenever he played, Alexis was a total loser. The runs Tello was able to make on that lefthand side allowed Messi to make those same passes he now makes to Neymar, in fact. Why Tito refused to see this was troubling and I won't pretend it wasn't infuriating.

Tito's season overall was a mess, though. Messi nearly singlehandedly walked the league and Madrid could barely string two wins together, so the 100 point league win serves as more of a mask to the greater issues we faced that season.

Yes, exactly. Well said. Also, Fabregas/Iniesta on the left wing. Mascherano was a mess that season, as well. This was a pattern with Tito, anyone could see it. There were numerous examples.

Those endless crosses were under Tata, and it seemed as coach oriented, as he didn't do that last season. Alves is a much better player than Montoya, always was, that's not debatable. And Thiago is much more talented than Montoya ever was. Montoya is like Bartra, a canterano some have/had as favorite and wanted badly for him to make it, but the reality is he's just not good enough. Not for Tito, not for Tata, not for Enrique, and now, not for Mancini. That's a clear pattern.

I could be mistaken, but the way I remember it, the crosses were worst under Tito, and only continued, but to a lesser extent, under Tata. But yes, they're coach oriented. Still, no coach would ever instruct him to cross to the stands. Crossing is one thing, crossing poorly is another. That's all Alves, not tactics. He was playing horribly and everyone knew it.

I will admit, however, that the pattern you're talking about makes sense. Obviously none of the coaches were convinced by Montoya. But, it is a fact that exactly at the (only) time when Montoya was developing at a fast pace and was showing potential of growing into a very good player, he was ignored and benched in favor of career-low Alves. As I said earlier, it wasn't a matter of giving Montoya preferential treatment and babysitting him just to help him develop, it was about doing what's best for the team. Alves was easily the worst thing the team had at the time, he was doing more damage than anything else. (Maybe tied with Alexis, tbf.) The sensible choice would be to at least bench him for Montoya until he gets his shit together. But Tito didn't do that, just like he didn't do with Xavi, Alexis, Fabregas and Mascherano. I'm not debating whether Alves is the better player overall, he obviously is, but that doesn't automatically erase any error in management that was linked to him. And it doesn't mean he was better than Montoya during every single week of his career, because he wasn't. Alves in the second half of 2012 was just embarrassing to watch.

 

[Flavia]

I could be mistaken, but the way I remember it, the crosses were worst under Tito, and only continued, but to a lesser extent, under Tata. But yes, they're coach oriented. Still, no coach would ever instruct him to cross to the stands. Crossing is one thing, crossing poorly is another. That's all Alves, not tactics. He was playing horribly and everyone knew it.

I will admit, however, that the pattern you're talking about makes sense. Obviously none of the coaches were convinced by Montoya. But, it is a fact that exactly at the (only) time when Montoya was developing at a fast pace and was showing potential of growing into a very good player, he was ignored and benched in favor of career-low Alves. As I said earlier, it wasn't a matter of giving Montoya preferential treatment and babysitting him just to help him develop, it was about doing what's best for the team. Alves was easily the worst thing the team had at the time, he was doing more damage than anything else. (Maybe tied with Alexis, tbf.) The sensible choice would be to at least bench him for Montoya until he gets his shit together. But Tito didn't do that, just like he didn't do with Xavi, Alexis, Fabregas and Mascherano. I'm not debating whether Alves is the better player overall, he obviously is, but that doesn't automatically erase any error in management that was linked to him. And it doesn't mean he was better than Montoya during every single week of his career, because he wasn't. Alves in the second half of 2012 was just embarrassing to watch.

You just can't blame one coach for a player failing. Montoya wasn't playing because he wasn't convincing in trainings, and it happened under all those coaches. I know everyone tend to get biased regarding some players, especially canteranos. I do it now with Samper, for instance. But the truth is we don't see them training every day. And Montoya was behind even Douglas for Enrique, for whatever crazy reason. Sometimes it's not even just about talent, but also mentality. Most promising players don't turn out as expected.

 

[D10S_JC]

He can't beat Santon, how poor he is?

 

[JamDav1982]

Yes, exactly. Well said. Also, Fabregas/Iniesta on the left wing. Mascherano was a mess that season, as well. This was a pattern with Tito, anyone could see it. There were numerous examples.



I could be mistaken, but the way I remember it, the crosses were worst under Tito, and only continued, but to a lesser extent, under Tata. But yes, they're coach oriented. Still, no coach would ever instruct him to cross to the stands. Crossing is one thing, crossing poorly is another. That's all Alves, not tactics. He was playing horribly and everyone knew it.

I will admit, however, that the pattern you're talking about makes sense. Obviously none of the coaches were convinced by Montoya. But, it is a fact that exactly at the (only) time when Montoya was developing at a fast pace and was showing potential of growing into a very good player, he was ignored and benched in favor of career-low Alves. As I said earlier, it wasn't a matter of giving Montoya preferential treatment and babysitting him just to help him develop, it was about doing what's best for the team. Alves was easily the worst thing the team had at the time, he was doing more damage than anything else. (Maybe tied with Alexis, tbf.) The sensible choice would be to at least bench him for Montoya until he gets his shit together. But Tito didn't do that, just like he didn't do with Xavi, Alexis, Fabregas and Mascherano. I'm not debating whether Alves is the better player overall, he obviously is, but that doesn't automatically erase any error in management that was linked to him. And it doesn't mean he was better than Montoya during every single week of his career, because he wasn't. Alves in the second half of 2012 was just embarrassing to watch.

I am sure the stats show that Alves crossed the ball more in Peps years than he did under Tata.

Alves was never as bad under Tata or Tito as some people tried to make out. He was the flavour of the month in the blame game by a lot of people on here at that point.

Even his crossing was never as bad as made out, one of his crosses effectively won the Super Copa against Atletico and later in season when Barca got eliminated from the CL the only way Barca looked like breaking down Atletico was crosses in from the right.

 

[Sumlit]

Montoya was never very good. This is not the fault of any manager but his own lack of talent. Even when Alves was at his worse and down period, Montoya had the chance to wrestle the spot from him and failed to do so because he showed very little on the field.

His senior career is as unimpressive as they come. Another case of a player doing well in the youth ranks for a number of reasons, but failing to translate that play to the big leagues.

 

[God Serena]

I am sure the stats show that Alves crossed the ball more in Peps years than he did under Tata.

Alves was never as bad under Tata or Tito as some people tried to make out. He was the flavour of the month in the blame game by a lot of people on here at that point.

Even his crossing was never as bad as made out, one of his crosses effectively won the Super Copa against Atletico and later in season when Barca got eliminated from the CL the only way Barca looked like breaking down Atletico was crosses in from the right.

Under both Tito and Tata it was to the point where every single ball that went to Alves was inevitably going to be crossed, and only on rare instances were they on target. Defenders would actually back off and prepare to intercept the cross whenever someone would spray it wide to him. We usually won our games despite Alves's crosses, not because of them. Even at the start of last season Alves was super cross heavy. It was only after that famous Anoeta loss that he cut that crap out and started playing with the team. There's a reason most of our success last season doesn't have many highlights of Dani crossing.

 

[Stric]

You just can't blame one coach for a player failing. Montoya wasn't playing because he wasn't convincing in trainings, and it happened under all those coaches. I know everyone tend to get biased regarding some players, especially canteranos. I do it now with Samper, for instance. But the truth is we don't see them training every day. And Montoya was behind even Douglas for Enrique, for whatever crazy reason. Sometimes it's not even just about talent, but also mentality. Most promising players don't turn out as expected.

I know, especially when we change 3 coaches in 3 seasons, and that's why I understand and agree with your comment on none of them being happy with Montoya. It's obviously not a coincidence. But still, they can't all be held to the same standard. Out of all of them, Tito had the most reason to play Montoya. But he only did it when he had no other choice, like with other players we mentioned already. Tito also screwed up with Thiago, big time. Anyways, I respect that you admit that about Samper, and I also must admit I'm somewhat biased about Montoya. But I can accept that he probably wouldn't turn out to be a world class RB anyway. However, I can't accept resolving Tito of any responsibility regarding these issues. It's OK to say that Montoya still wouldn't turn out to be good enough, but still admit that he could and should have been given at least some more opportunities, especially when the players he was competing with weren't on form or were being overplayed. Maybe, just maybe that would have made a difference for him - mentally, like you said. And this isn't about him leaving Barca, I'm just talking about him as a person and a player, wherever he plays. Imagine what it does to your mind when the guy you're competing with puts in horrific performances every week and you still can't get a shot unless he gets injured. Imagine how it feels when you play good every time you play, but you still can't play as long as the 33-year-old on painkillers is available, even in "easier" matches, even as a sub. That's why I can't not blame Tito, and that's why I hold him more responsible than Tata and Lucho.

BTW Douglas wasn't ahead of Montoya, I don't know why people think that. Lucho played Douglas late in the season instead of Montoya because he basically hadn't played all season, and Lucho said that publicly in a press conference.

Montoya was never very good. This is not the fault of any manager but his own lack of talent. Even when Alves was at his worse and down period, Montoya had the chance to wrestle the spot from him and failed to do so because he showed very little on the field.

That's exactly the point - he didn't. Nobody gave him the chance. When Alves was at his worse and down period, he was still the starting RB ahead of Adriano and Montoya. They can't show the coach what they're capable of if he doesn't play them.

 

[Sumlit]

That's exactly the point - he didn't. Nobody gave him the chance. When Alves was at his worse and down period, he was still the starting RB ahead of Adriano and Montoya. They can't show the coach what they're capable of if he doesn't play them.

He was given plenty of play to show something, and he showed very little. When you're a young player trying to earn a spot in a team, specially against established players, you need to shine in the limited minutes you will be given.

Montoya played 24 games in 12/13, Tito's season, the most of any season he was a Barca player. 67 games total in his Barca career. He just wasn't good enough.

 

[Barcilliant]

He was given plenty of play to show something, and he showed very little. When you're a young player trying to earn a spot in a team, specially against established players, you need to shine in the limited minutes you will be given.

Montoya played 24 games in 12/13, Tito's season, the most of any season he was a Barca player. 67 games total in his Barca career. He just wasn't good enough.

True. Playing so many games and not nailed down a spot means you're not good enough.

 

[raki]

Roberto in 2 games convinced me as RB.

 

[serghei]

Alves at his worst was 2x times better than Montoya. Alves at his worst was scoring against City two times and nutmegging Ronaldo while dominating him in the clasico. There were about two-three months when people underrated Alves a lot and overrated Montoya in exchange. Those months passed and things got back to being normal and logical again. The thing with Montoya is that he is, as I said a while ago, a player whose quality recommends him for a team placed 5-10 in Spain at best. A team like Espanyol, Malaga, maybe Celta Vigo or Rayo Vallecano. Is he a better rightback than Fontas was a centerback? Nope. Exactly that level. Fortunately for us, every manager we had saw that, as they had seen it with Fontas before. Some players are just not at the level required to play in a certain team.

 

[Stric]

That's 24 appearances, not 24 games. Nice cherrypicking there, mate!

Alves at his worst was 2x times better than Montoya.

In your dreams. As long as people are willing to spout shit like this just because his name is Dani Alves, there is nothing to talk about.

 

[Zinedinho]

Those endless crosses were under Tata, and it seemed as coach oriented, as he didn't do that last season. Alves is a much better player than Montoya, always was, that's not debatable. And Thiago is much more talented than Montoya ever was. Montoya is like Bartra, a canterano some have/had as favorite and wanted badly for him to make it, but the reality is he's just not good enough. Not for Tito, not for Tata, not for Enrique, and now, not for Mancini. That's a clear pattern.

I think Bartra is a much better player than Montoya.

 

[Zinedinho]

That's 24 appearances, not 24 games. Nice cherrypicking there, mate!



In your dreams. As long as people are willing to spout shit like this just because his name is Dani Alves, there is nothing to talk about.

Montoya was Ok against the likes of Getafe, because usually Barça dominates this type of teams. He's always been very poor defensively. I was tired of seeing him almost fall to the floor each time someone did a feint. Offensively, he lacked any sort of creativity. In a couple of games, Sergi Roberto has shown much more than Montoya ever did, and we're talking about someone who has been criticized for not being creative enough.

Montoya is just too limited. Primera división level if he gets his shit together, but nothing else.