Matthijs de Ligt

[DonAK]

@BBZ8800

Apart from Halilovic's fragile physical profile and his low football IQ, he's also arrogant and believes he's way better than he is.

I don't see that in de Ligt(captain and a natural leader) or de Jong.

Also, so many of the great defenders throughout history were hardly the fastest. I would love a van Dijk-esque CB, but he's a rare breed. He's perhaps the most complete CB I can remember in recent times.

Note: Most complete doesn't mean the best or even top 10, but he's got absolutely everything.

 

[Devils]

My sources from Catalonia are telling me that there will be some news regarding De Ligt tonight.

 

[DonAK]

I personally don't see a negative with trying to sign him. If we want to move on from him and upgrade later we'll do so without losing a lot of money due to his age and already great reputation.

If he succeeds and lives up to expectations we got a damn good player for 10+ years, and most likely a future Captain too.

 

[Campos]

Kid is a stellar talent and a must sign. No 19 year old CB is world class. You pay for quality and potential. World class CBs are almost never in the market.

Umtiti was just a good CB from Lyon. Van Dijk played for Southampton. Ramos was signed green by Madrid
and Varane the same. Pique the same.

De Ligt will be the perfect Pique replacement.

He's 19, and he's playing in a shitty league. What do people expect ? He's already near world class level on this age.
But he's still a kid. And once in a while, he wil make a stupid mistake. That's part of the learning process.

It's a risk, but risks are part of the game.

If you don't want to take the risk. Barca should buy Godin or VVD. But even experienced defenders have their flaws. No defender is flawless.

But ya, if De Ligt fulfill his potential. He will be world class within 2 years. No doubt about that.

 

[BBZ8800]

If BBZ isn't a fan of De Jong nor De Ligt, that certainly means the club is doing something right.

I like Frenkie now.
Especially for La Liga, he should be good.
But still, to bring some balance to a forum, I like to write critical posts and not only: omg, we are set for the next 200 years with these 2 players!!

De Light, well, this is not my money, so I would rather have him than not have him.
He does have good mental strength skills and good skills for now.

But, if Umtiti will be healthy, I don't see where will De Light play, NOT only because of EV.
Just imagine this in the next season:
Round No1, Home match La Liga:
Pique-Umtiti pairing

Round 2, away:
Pique-Umtiti or Pique-Lenglet

Round 3, home match:
De Light might start now, let's say with Umtiti.

Round 4:
Pique-Lenglet now, since Lenglet played only 1 match till now.

Round 5, Camp Nou. Umtiti and Lenglet played only 2 matches till now. If you want to play De Light again, one out of Umtiti-Lenglet will already be pissed since they are higher in the pecking order, yet they are on the bench all the time.
So, after 5 times, you will have:
De Light 1 or 2 matches at max.
Umtiti and Lenglet already pissed off and at least 1 of them will play only 2 matches out of 5 even though they are perfectly fit and healthy.

And this written above is a perfect scenario, IF De Light will play well and not make mistakes.
So, if he'll play well right from the day1 (which is highly unlikely), he won't play too much.
Now, imagine if he'll make 2 deadly mistakes in the first 2 matches and we lose points.
What now?
Will you (as a coach) continue to force De Light and his development, and make Umtiti and Lenglet angry who were starters and good players in 2018 and 2019?
Or will you bench De Light after his early mistakes and play Pique, Umtiti, Lenglet (and then make Barcaforum members angry)?

Yes, we will probably concede goals, and even lose points with a young CB in goal. These kinds of things happen. But I don't really see a problem with that. We lost points when we sold Bravo because Mats was finding his feet as a weekly starter, and look at him now. Any points we may have lost from having Mats in goal instead of Bravo ended up not being able to stop us from winning the league, and now Mats is up there with Messi for players keeping us in the league through individual performances. I'm actually expecting us to lose points playing with younger players. Growing isn't always a painless process.

Look at Bravo vs Mats.
Bravo was very old.
And even then, he didn't accept the bench and wanted to leave.

Now, if we'll buy De Light, we will have:
1. a club icon and an icon of Catalonia and independance (Pique) who plays as a Goat this season. You can't bench him in the next 2 years, I guess.
2. Lenglet, who is young and awesome this season
3. Umtiti, who is young and was called by people here: as the best CB in the world last season

Now, let's move emotions and bias for a second.
How exactly are you guys planning to rotate these 4 players?
The only option is to rotate 4 defenders in EVERY single match.
But then... you need chemistry and automatism in the defense also, which can be accomplished only with playing one defensive duo more often.

Pique and Lenglet played for 1 season together and they now have a good chemistry.
Pique and Umtiti played in the last season and had a good chemistry, but now they haven't played together for half of a season.
Also, short term: Pique is heavy and slow and De light also.
Those two can't play together, right?
De Light could play with Umtiti and Lenglet.
But then, what Wolfe mentions often: you need an older guy and a kid together so that an older guy can teach and lead a kid.
Who will teach De Light? Lenglet?

So, I am not against De Light.
I just think that he is NOT THAT GOOD in THIS MOMENT.
Plus, his signing will bring a lot of practical problems for a coach in terms of rotations in defense and making all 4 guys happy.
"The best" option for us would be if one defenders would get injured for 6 Months, then 3 guys would play a lot.
If all 4 guys will be fit, there will be a lot of problems and unhappy players (and Barcaforum fans).

 

[khaled_a_d]

Mina would not look like a Thuram in Netherlands, Halilovic would not look like a half decent player there either. Some of you folks need to get a grip with your fallacies.

Are we sure about that? Mina looked like beast in the world cup, was Brazil's best CB (and it is same level as Eredivisie, may be even better) while Halilovic looked great with Gijon in his loan there.
Bringing in the level of the league is legit argument, sure you have to also see the talent as there is always talents out there in this lower leagues. But ignoring level of the league will bring back the memories of Drenthe, Van der Vaart & Huntelaar

 

[te amo barca]

For once I agree with BBZ. It is better for Barca if De Ligt stays at Ajax for another season and maybe finally wins the Eredivisie, the last time Ajax won it was in 2014. If he comes now whilst we have three from good to world class central defenders already, we simply will not be able to give enough and deserved playing time for all.

 

[DonAK]

Are we sure about that? Mina looked like beast in the world cup, was Brazil's best CB (and it is same level as Eredivisie, may be even better) while Halilovic looked great with Gijon in his loan there.
Bringing in the level of the league is legit argument, sure you have to also see the talent as there is always talents out there in this lower leagues. But ignoring level of the league will bring back the memories of Drenthe, Van der Vaart & Huntelaar

As I said each player should be judged separately.

Mina is good in teams that don't play with a high line. Halilovic would not be good anywhere. Ødegaard who is twice the talent has been underwhelming for the most part in the Eredivisie and only recently started playing to his potential.

Van der Vaart was a pretty decent player IMO. At least for Tottenham. Liked watching him play for them. Was fun to watch.

Anyway, as I've said before, it wouldn't be the end of the World if we don't sign him. I'd be more disappointed if we missed out on someone like Mbappe or a supremely talented forward, midfielder or RB given we can improve in those positions.

 

[Campos]

For once I agree with BBZ. It is better for Barca if De Ligt stays at Ajax for another season and maybe finally wins the Eredivisie, the last time Ajax won it was in 2014. If he comes now whilst we have three from good to world class central defenders already, we simply will not be able to give enough and deserved playing time for all.

De Ligt is too good for the Eredivisie. He need to play in a top competition on a weekly basis. He need to play against top-class strikers every week. He will leave this summer. Even if Barca don't buy him.
Ajax fans would love to see him one more season. But trust me, it won't happen.

As I said each player should be judged separately.

Mina is good in teams that don't play with a high line. Halilovic would not be good anywhere. Ødegaard who is twice the talent has been underwhelming for the most part in the Eredivisie and only recently started playing to his potential.

Van der Vaart was a pretty decent player IMO. At least for Tottenham. Liked watching him play for them. Was fun to watch.

Anyway, as I've said before, it wouldn't be the end of the World if we don't sign him. I'd be more disappointed if we missed out on someone like Mbappe or a supremely talented forward, midfielder or RB given we can improve in those positions.

If VDV had pace, he would have been world class. Really great player with the ball on his feet. Pretty underrated.

 

[wisconsincule]

It really comes down to Pique. He has been phenomenal this season but how long will this form last? He is 32 after all.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Mina is good in teams that don't play with a high line. Halilovic would not be good anywhere. Ødegaard who is twice the talent has been underwhelming for the most part in the Eredivisie and only recently started playing to his potential.

Van der Vaart was a pretty decent player IMO. At least for Tottenham. Liked watching him play for them. Was fun to watch.

Halilovic was good in La Liga itself, out of all leagues. So no,"Halilovic would not be good anywhere" isn't really a right argument. Which obviously helps in the argument that not all talents from bigger leagues succeed either.
Van Der Vaart was decent at best, he is a guy we were buying in 2005 if it weren't for Rijkaard blocking the deal because he liked Messi. He was "future captain" material, "proven" in Eredivisie etc. He later was decent in Spurs after years in Spain & Germany. But never good enough for elite clubs.

As I said each player should be judged separately.

I agree, but how can you judge talents?
I mean the league and the opponents you are playing against are always one of the parameters of judging a player.
Look, I don't want to be hypocrite here, I was in same side of your argument with Felix for example. But I can't deny the others from taking the level of the league into account.

I personally don't see a negative with trying to sign him. If we want to move on from him and upgrade later we'll do so without losing a lot of money due to his age and already great reputation.

If he succeeds and lives up to expectations we got a damn good player for 10+ years, and most likely a future Captain too.

The argument of resale value doesn't always work, if a player fail many clubs will try to take advantage of that. The good reputation will be long gone then.
If De Ligt was 40M type of player then yeah, risk is minimal. But at 60M+ ? Are you sure we can sell him for 40M at least if he fails here? Not a loan with 25M buy option?
There is a clear risk in such deal, just like it is in FDJ, to some extent there was a risk with Arthur & big risk with Dembele. I wish the club knows what it is doing and we get lucky whether we get him or not.

 

[DonAK]

Halilovic was good in La Liga itself, out of all leagues. So no,"Halilovic would not be good anywhere" isn't really a right argument. Which obviously helps in the argument that not all talents from bigger leagues succeed either.
Van Der Vaart was decent at best, he is a guy we were buying in 2005 if it weren't for Rijkaard blocking the deal because he liked Messi. He was "future captain" material, "proven" in Eredivisie etc. He later was decent in Spurs after years in Spain & Germany. But never good enough for elite clubs.



I agree, but how can you judge talents?
I mean the league and the opponents you are playing against are always one of the parameters of judging a player.
Look, I don't want to be hypocrite here, I was in same side of your argument with Felix for example. But I can't deny the others from taking the level of the league into account.



The argument of resale value doesn't always work, if a player fail many clubs will try to take advantage of that. The good reputation will be long gone then.
If De Ligt was 40M type of player then yeah, risk is minimal. But at 60M+ ? Are you sure we can sell him for 40M at least if he fails here? Not a loan with 25M buy option?
There is a clear risk in such deal, just like it is in FDJ, to some extent there was a risk with Arthur & big risk with Dembele. I wish the club knows what it is doing and we get lucky whether we get him or not.

I think I'll just summarize my thoughts here:

First of all I think we're going into too many ifs and buts here. The fact here is that de Ligt has been a stalwart in Ajax since he was 17 and performed well against multiple good to great football teams. De Jong has been doing that this season too.

Neither Mina or Halilovic have done anything like that. Halilovic had half a season with some promising performances for Gijon until he was dropped and started seeing minimal time.

To claim both would dominate the Eredivisie to me is just wrong based on their body of work and irrelevant here anyway. The reason de Jong and de Ligt's stock have risen is not because of their performances against Go Ahead Eagles, but because of their performances against good or great teams in European Competitions unlike anything Mina or Halilovic have ever done. Mina I could give the benefit of doubt since he did very well in the Libertadores which is a very physical enduring competition, but Davinson Sanchez who was very good for Ajax and is a better CB than Mina didn't dominate or play as well as de Ligt has done for Ajax so to make that argument in Mina's case I just won't buy.

You judge players based on their skillset, their decision making and how they perform in key moments or bigger games and both these guys have come out strong in that regard. Sure they both have flaws and we cannot be sure they'll succeed, but they certainly got the talent and the right mentality to do so. Both are hard workers who keep striving for more, to get better. Especially in de Ligt's case where van Dijk's been keeping him in check and said he can improve in absolutely everything and that he need to keep working hard as he's doing right now and not buy into his hype.

I think someone like de Ligt would have a high resale value as long as he doesn't get injured or completely flops here. If we sign him for 70m, we won't get 70m back, but I'm confident we can get 50-60m at least for him. Still young, a leader and all that.

Anyway as I said, I wouldn't be mad if we missed out on him. Some other good CB talents out there too. I'd rather have a great RB which we seem unable to find

 

[FC433]

[tw]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"> [TV3 - <a href="https://twitter.com/ClubMitjanit?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ClubMitjanit</a>] | De Ligt-Barça: Attention to this Tuesday <br><br>Tomorrow can be an important day<br><br> After the ECA meeting, there can be an important meeting between Barça and Ajax to decide things<br><br>Barça remain the favorites to sign the player <a href="https://t.co/3TehBjSgpz">pic.twitter.com/3TehBjSgpz</a></p>— BarçaTimes (@BarcaTimes) <a href="https://twitter.com/BarcaTimes/status/1110321898485964805?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 25, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> [/tw]

 

[Magyarkhan]

[tw]1110321898485964805[/tw]

If you follow DeLigt closely like on dutch television you will see a player that is a real gem even if he flops at barca... which i doubt. He can become your leader for 10 years.

 

[Porque]

Pique in his early days turned like an oil tanker. It was one of my initial concerns having seen him at Man U and the Spanish youth setup.

Not saying De Ligt will suddenly become faster, but acceleration and agility can improve as he is both growing and Barcelona tailer his training plan.