Mavericky Puig

[vegitot]

Pedri averages 38 passes a game in CL and 40 in La Liga. He has the xfactor further forward but isn't one to be constantly recycling possession.

I do not think Riqui Puig is a magic solution at all and I do rate Pedri' ceiling higher, but Puig's tendency to constantly look for the ball is something we lack at times.

Look for the ball then pass it back. We don't lack it. We lack everything but that. Iniesta also was smashed 0-4 by PSG

 

[fergus90]

Look for the ball then pass it back. We don't lack it. We lack everything but that. Iniesta also was smashed 0-4 by PSG

We do not get close to having the midfield dominance that we used to. Problem is we no longer have the best midfielders in world football. That 4-0 PSG thrashing was already the beginning of the end for Barca yet its crazy that some of that spine are still key factors today. Iniesta was past his best by Feb 2017.

 

[vegitot]

We do not get close to having the midfield dominance that we used to. Problem is we no longer have the best midfielders in world football. That 4-0 PSG thrashing was already the beginning of the end for Barca yet its crazy that some of that spine are still key factors today. Iniesta was past his best by Feb 2017.

Agree.

 

[eaman]

Both De Jong and Pedri are those kind of player but they are completely destroyed by PSG. Puig's agility and small legs (which make him look faster) will not change anything. Plus PSG attack will always keep Barca midfield busy.

Verratti's small legs dominate any midfield

 

[Bobo32]

** Bobo32, you are new on forum. Just one thing to consider, I see that you are looking mostly on player's skills. Or more precisely on technical skills or Barca DNA skills.
On those shiny passes, technique and movement.

This is true.
Well, I look for understanding, vision, decision, timing, and only then technique.
I am not from Barcelona, I follow Barcelona because of their style, and their former willingness to put these kind of players together, destroying football.

Imo, you are neglecting physique, defending, personality in a psychological way, professionalism outside of a pitch etc.

I lack insight to be able to judge professionalism, personality etc, and I'm not so interested to speculate. Physique is a much lower priority than understanding. Defence is key, but should be done as little and as effectively as possible.

Xavi and Iniesta are not good exampes of that type of light midfielders.
They were the best of the best.
In general, majority of weaker Xaviesta copies end as meh midtable teams players.

You might say that, I say they were not regarded as best of the best before 2008 (aged 24/28)

I don't want to even start to explain again what would happen with Frenkie-Pedri-Puig trio defensively.
Frenkie is questionable as a lone pivot.
Pedri is meh defender.
Puig struggles with a wind blowing.

Frenkie is not a pivot, too mobile for that. I want to develop him into a central defender (for Barcelona). He might be good as an #8 with the right players around him.
Pedri is an inside winger or a #10 I think. He is not yet a #6 or #8 at all, the way I see it.
Puig is a #6 or an #8, he has not yet struggled with anything what I've seen. I doubt you can find more than 5 duels he's lost, I can find many more that he has won. He had a great interception today.

That trio could work at home against Alaves.
In a CL, you wouldn't get Xavi-Iniesta 2011's magic from them but more likely 2005's Gerard-Xavi-Deco-Iniesta catastrophy at Stamford bridge where we watched grown men vs 13 years old kids in defending.

I want at the moment Busquets-Puig-De Jong/Roberto and if I could dream Busquets-Puig-Thiago, and I think it would dominate.
I think most urgent change in Barcelona is to get better wingers than those frenchmen, though. I don't think my way of playing can ever work with such wingers. I also think the coach needs to be very active and very demanding, not allowing f.e Ter Stegen to just clear the ball. But Koeman is not looking for my type of football obviously.

 

[jairzinho]

Verratti's small legs dominate any midfield

Veratti most times plays with an enforcer Gueye/Danilo and another combative player like Paredes. That allows him to focus on creating play while leaving the 'dirty work' and energy to other players. This fantasy midfield of Puig,Pedri,Frenkie/Busi would get blown away by any top team just like today.

 

[eaman]

Veratti most times plays with an enforcer Gueye/Danilo and another combative player like Paredes. That allows him to focus on creating play while leaving the 'dirty work' and energy to other players. This fantasy midfield of Puig,Pedri,Frenkie/Busi would get blown away by any top team just like today.

Verratti is more combative than any of those players you mentioned. Anyway puig would have been alot busier than any barca midfielder tonight and that would've helped

 

[jairzinho]

Even if that's true it shows how much more combative they are in midfield than us. We need to strike a balance between intensity/aggression and technique. That's all.

 

[Marshall D Teach]

Not his biggest fan but I'd take him in the team if it means dropping Busquets.

 

[BBZ8800]

We do not get close to having the midfield dominance that we used to. Problem is we no longer have the best midfielders in world football.

We never had dominance except in 2006 and 2008-2011.

Pre Rijkaard, Barca had possession and dominance only to lose against any semidecent Italian or English team who knew how to score a goal.

The real question is: did Barca dominate under Pep because of a midfield trio or because of 6 false midfielders?

We had Busi, Xavi, Iniesta.
We'll never have Xavi-Iniesta again, and especially we won't have Xavi = the Tiki Taka himself.

Let's go further, we had Dani Alves who played high up the pitch and who was like a false midfielder.
Then add Pedro who was like a possession-recycler-high workrate winger.
And then we had a false 9 Messi, who was almost a midfielder and a CAM.

Now, my point is, even if you play football manager, no 3 current midfielders from any team will ALONE bring back the dominance from 2011 because that midfield dominance came from 6 players, not from 3.

You can buy Verratti, De Bruyne and Thiago, they would still miss the passing triangle option of Dani, false 9 Messi or Pedro.

Look at the current team: whoever 3 midfielders are, their RB in recent years were:
1) limited Roberto
2) braindead Semedo
3) zero Barca DNA Mingueza
4) so-so young, green and scared Dest

Instead of false 9 Messi, we have a false-retired granny Messi or Braithwaite.
And instead of Pedro, we have Dembele or Trincao, lol.

And this 3 versus 6 midfielders explanation is not even touching problems like:
1) even Pep's team had only 20% of away CL knockout matches wins
2) even Pep's 6 false midfielders struggled against any physical team and got knocked out almost every time (2009 Chelsea scandal, 2010 Mou's Inter, 2012 Chelsea)

So:
1. We will never replicate Xavi and Iniesta
2. Pep actually used 6 false midfielders to dominate and not only 3 of them
3. Even Pep's overloaded midfield with the best duo ever Xavi-Iniesta, with a GOAT Messi, still struggled against physical and combative teams
4. Yet, today, football is even more physical and there is more physical opponents than in Pep's era.
So, if Pep's Barca around 2010 managed to have only 20% of away wins, imagine how that team would cope today.
The answer: worse.

And then fans are always yelling (Bobo32 for example): we need to go back to our roots.

Are roots really THAT successful?
Would our roots work without GOAT Messi?

So, basically, our domination was built on:
1. Overloading midfield with 6 false midfielders
2. Having cheating codes in Messi
3. Italian teams not existing back then due to Calciopolli scandal and bankruptcy
4. Bayern, our kryptonite, being on an all time low
5. Man utd playing with almost 40 years old Giggs in a 2 man midfield against 6 of our midfielders

So maybe, instead of chasing urban myths and dreams and saying how that was the best system ever, maybe we should change the view to: our style is historically in Europe so-so, usually KO'd by faster/stronger/more aggressive teams, and we won only when we had the best generation ever, paired with a prime GOAT Messi and paired with some external factors like no Italians, Chelsea scandal in 2009 and a word where football was not as physical as today.

And then we have guys proposing Frenkie-Pedri-Puig midfield.
Lol, seriously?

That is not even a 2nd CL tier.
That is Uefa cup level of midfield for 2022.

Barca will not improve if we'll chase shadows of 2011, and until people will realize WHY EXACTLY we dominated back then.

 

[fergus90]

We never had dominance except in 2006 and 2008-2011.

Pre Rijkaard, Barca had possession and dominance only to lose against any semidecent Italian or English team who knew how to score a goal.

The real question is: did Barca dominate under Pep because of a midfield trio or because of 6 false midfielders?

We had Busi, Xavi, Iniesta.
We'll never have Xavi-Iniesta again, and especially we won't have Xavi = the Tiki Taka himself.

Let's go further, we had Dani Alves who played high up the pitch and who was like a false midfielder.
Then add Pedro who was like a possession-recycler-high workrate winger.
And then we had a false 9 Messi, who was almost a midfielder and a CAM.

Now, my point is, even if you play football manager, no 3 current midfielders from any team will ALONE bring back the dominance from 2011 because that midfield dominance came from 6 players, not from 3.

You can buy Verratti, De Bruyne and Thiago, they would still miss the passing triangle option of Dani, false 9 Messi or Pedro.

Look at the current team: whoever 3 midfielders are, their RB in recent years were:
1) limited Roberto
2) braindead Semedo
3) zero Barca DNA Mingueza
4) so-so young, green and scared Dest

Instead of false 9 Messi, we have a false-retired granny Messi or Braithwaite.
And instead of Pedro, we have Dembele or Trincao, lol.

And this 3 versus 6 midfielders explanation is not even touching problems like:
1) even Pep's team had only 20% of away CL knockout matches wins
2) even Pep's 6 false midfielders struggled against any physical team and got knocked out almost every time (2009 Chelsea scandal, 2010 Mou's Inter, 2012 Chelsea)

So:
1. We will never replicate Xavi and Iniesta
2. Pep actually used 6 false midfielders to dominate and not only 3 of them
3. Even Pep's overloaded midfield with the best duo ever Xavi-Iniesta, with a GOAT Messi, still struggled against physical and combative teams
4. Yet, today, football is even more physical and there is more physical opponents than in Pep's era.
So, if Pep's Barca around 2010 managed to have only 20% of away wins, imagine how that team would cope today.
The answer: worse.

And then fans are always yelling (Bobo32 for example): we need to go back to our roots.

Are roots really THAT successful?
Would our roots work without GOAT Messi?

So, basically, our domination was built on:
1. Overloading midfield with 6 false midfielders
2. Having cheating codes in Messi
3. Italian teams not existing back then due to Calciopolli scandal and bankruptcy
4. Bayern, our kryptonite, being on an all time low
5. Man utd playing with almost 40 years old Giggs in a 2 man midfield against 6 of our midfielders

So maybe, instead of chasing urban myths and dreams and saying how that was the best system ever, maybe we should change the view to: our style is historically in Europe so-so, usually KO'd by faster/stronger/more aggressive teams, and we won only when we had the best generation ever, paired with a prime GOAT Messi and paired with some external factors like no Italians, Chelsea scandal in 2009 and a word where football was not as physical as today.

And then we have guys proposing Frenkie-Pedri-Puig midfield.
Lol, seriously?

That is not even a 2nd CL tier.
That is Uefa cup level of midfield for 2022.

Barca will not improve if we'll chase shadows of 2011, and until people will realize WHY EXACTLY we dominated back then.

A lot of domination was built on variables and luck though, Barca is not the only side to benefit from that. Milan won 2 European cups when no club from England couldn't compete in Europe for 5 years. Prior to that, English clubs were dominating them and my main club won the European Cup in 1982.

No club really dominated Europe in the 90's, Marseille, Barca, Dortmund, Ajax, Real Madrid, Man United, Juventus, Milan, Belgrade all won it, a very mixed bag.

Total of times win in that decade: 1990-2000
3 - Spain
3 - Italy
1 - England
1 - Netherlands
1 - Germany
1 - Serbia
1 - France.

CL in 2000 - 2010:

4 - Spain
2 - Italy
1 - Germany
1 - England
1 - Portugal

CL in 2010-2020:

6 - Spain
2 - England
2 - Germany
1 - Italy

So in general, what are classifying as successful? I don't really see any point in history where a country or club has not gone some period without success in Europe.

To me success isn't just about the CL, domestically Barca was great under Cruyff too playing football with similar principles. You do of course need a mixture of profiles in a squad and physicality is very key. We had those profiles too in Toure,Keita,Motta, Van Bommel, Marquez etc. We just have a terrible squad now and too many important members in the twilight of their career.

 

[Bobo32]

This was a decent post by BBZ8800
An analysis that is coherent, thought-out and where most of its parts are true
The big picture may be true as well, maybe there is no possibility of dominating again the way Barcelona did under Pep
And maybe they weren't even quite as dominant as we think, looking back.

Either way, I'd rather have Barcelona playing that way, and not dominate, than playing without identity (with no guarantee of better results, nevermind domination, btw)

And Barcelona was not dominating in 2006, I don't even think they were the clear favourites to win CL beforehand, despite their stacked team.
In 2009 they dominated though, and I'd say after that they were the clear favourites even until 2016 or something.
After 2011 it was almost Soviet hockey team talk, people saying there's no need to play, Barcelona will win anyway. Most teams changed their approach completely in order to face Barcelona.
Of course, some games they were caught out, the style is inherently a bit labile, despite being so focused on control (losing control means the cardhouse falls).

Whatever way Barcelona choose to take, we should acknowledge the need to choose. Right now there is a clash of styles, incompatible with each other, they are massively underperforming.
And in any way, the approach to dominate by dominating the ball is not unsuccesful now, and will not stop working in the future either.
I agree it's not about having three good midfielders, it's about building a team that works.

 

[BBZ8800]

To me success isn't just about the CL, domestically Barca was great under Cruyff too playing football with similar principles. You do of course need a mixture of profiles in a squad and physicality is very key. We had those profiles too in Toure,Keita,Motta, Van Bommel, Marquez etc. We just have a terrible squad now and too many important members in the twilight of their career.

We discussed similar questions a few times in the past.
I am Rijkaard's fan and not Pep's.
Even though Pep was more dominant.
But imo, Pep killed the no9, and created a perfect one-way (possession style) and sacrificed corners, crosses, headers, physique, longshots, longballs.
Rijkaard was more all-rounder.
Pep created a team with 11 Iniestas.
If they are on form, they will trash anyone.
But if they meet some bullies in Europe of if they can't break the bus, with Pep there is no plan B in Europe.

Anyway, Pep's possession, dominant, attacking football is absolutely the best type for LEAGUE competitions.
Over 38 rounds, his teams will usually be on top.
The same is with Barca in Spain, who could have won all titles since 2009 with a bit of luck.

On the other hand, that style doesn't work in Europe, except in perfect conditions when you are miles better than everyone.

In Europe and on World cups, winners in the last 7-8 years are usually direct, lethal teams.
Germans, France, Real with crosses and Cr7, Liverpool, Bayern.

Those teams are all similar.
They are dominant, but they don't dwell on ball like Barca.
They are more direct.
They use possession, counters and crosses, unlike Barca.
They usually have a true No9, unlike Barca.
They are more physical, taller and faster than Barca.
They are more aggressive than our nice choirboys.
They have better mental strength at 0:1 or in the 90th minute where you need clutch players and bravery.

Nice guys can win over 38 rounds because there is no sudden death (knockout matches).
Less technical yet physical and aggressive teams will lose more points over 38 rounds.

So, roughly:
League championship is more about skills, technique, possession.
Champions league and world cup KO rounds are more about: boxing match, street fighting, mental strength, dirty tricks, direct football, clutch players, finding the simplest way to shoot and score (Real's crosses to Cr7 or Bayern's style, for example, where Germans often say: "you don't want to have more than 70% of possession, you are making a mistake in that case).

In that sense, theoretically, we could win La liga with 3 Puigs in midfield.
Yet, in a CL we would probably lose 7:1 to any EPL or German team.

In a CL, Barca's true style worked only in 1992, where there was only 1 team per country, where we luckily scored in the 90th minute in a round of 16, and where we won with a free kick goal from Koeman in a final.
It is hard to call that a true domination.

Rijkaard in 2006, the same.
Good football, but far from a domination.

Msn in 2015, we bypassed midfield and relied on defense and MSN magic.
Not too much in common with Pep's domination.

So, basically, our only finals with Barca/Pep's domination came when we had 6 false midfielders, Xavi-Iniesta and a GOAT Messi, in an era without too many physical teams.

So, on a European level, it is hard to say that Barca's football dominated except during the golden generation.
So, it is reasonable to ask: can that classic style win ever again in Europe?

Winning against La liga opponents is one thing.
And winning against EPL bullies, Bayern and Italians is a different world.

 

[serghei]

BBZ, you realize Pep won 2 CLs in 4 years with us? Reading some of your comments you'd never say we beat some of the best teams in Europe in CL with him, including outclassing Ferguson's United twice in 2 finals.

 

[BBZ8800]

BBZ, you realize Pep won 2 CLs in 4 years with us? Reading some of your comments you'd never say we beat some of the best teams in Europe in CL with him, including outclassing Ferguson's United twice in 2 finals.

He won with 6 midfielders, having the one and only Xavi and Iniesta, he had the one and only GOAT Messi.

And with all of that had around 20% of wins in KO away matches.
And lost almost 3 out of 4 ties against bully teams.

My point is: we will never replicate the quality of Pep's team, yet even that team struggled against particular type of opponents.

And today majority of CL teams play in the way which is a kryptonite to a classic Barca's style.

And since majoriry of Barca's purists want to go back to our roots and to Pep's ideas, I am asking: how on Earth will we win with baf copies of Pep's team against European direct-physical-aggressive teams from 2022 onwards?

We'll lose 1:8 in every single season.