Neymar Jr. - v5

[Messi983]

So people who think he's the best are unreasonable?

 

[JamDav1982]

Stats say that Suarez has been as good as Messi and better than Neymar this year then?

No chance has he been either.

Stats dont telll the whole story and Neymars two goals and assist at home to PSG to almost single handed drag Barca through in the CL cant be treated equally with other goals and assists.

Neymar this year has been up there with Messi for his all round game in terms of goals, assists, performances in big games and his overall work rate. Need to to do it for longer to be declared the best but he is getting close and it is not wrong to have him in the discussion.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

I don't mind this discussion, though some already saw neymar as the best months ago. But there are so much more to stats than G+A, and they very often vindicate the better player.

 

[Nepopop]

lets not watch games and just look at stats. #greatfans

 

[Barcaman]

lets not watch games and just look at stats. #greatfans

Who said anything about not watching the games?

You must be a great fan though so why don't you take a hike somewhere else if you don't like it here.

#dontletthedoorhityouonyourwayout

 

[Deco 20]

Neymar is a frustrating player but he's played well recently.

 

[BusiTheKing]

It's a tough comparison. I think the main difference between them, and the reason why Neymar will never reach the heights of Messi, is that Neymar is a player that sees an opportunity and takes it while Messi is a player that creates the opportunity itself. When the opportunity is there (time, space, a visible route of dribbling), Neymar might be the better player right now.

 

[BBZ8800]

lets not watch games and just look at stats. #greatfans

2 years ago when Neymar was banging goals like crazy, he was hailed here as better than Etoo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo.
Since none of them ever banged so many goals for Barca.

"Football is much more than stats" didn't apply then. It applies only when it is suitable.

Neymar started to play epic this season against Psg (he was good-ish in the last few weeks before that also, but after that match, emotions/hype and everything clicked perfectly).
Basically, Neymar played on an insane level for Barca against Psg, and after that he played only 2 matches in total for Barca.
Against Valencia and against Granada.
He did play well for an NT team also lately.

Anyway, since a revisionism likes to kicks in in moments like this and it is easy to forget a past and "paint" it based on the last few week, let's check Barca's Man of the match thread in 2017 (since revisionism can't kick in there and we can analyze a situation and a progression in a more objective way):
http://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/13912-Barcaforum-Man-of-the-Match-2016-17/page38

January:
CDR: Bilbao:Barca 2:1
1. Neymar
2. Messi
3. Umtiti

Villareal:Barca 1:1
1. Messi
2. Mascherano
3. Iniesta

CDR: Barcelona:Bilbao 3:1
1. Neymar
2. Messi
3. Suarez

Cdr: Sociedad:Barca 0:1
1. Neymar
2. Busquets
3. Pique

Eibar:Barca 0:4
1. Messi
2. Suarez
3. Mats

Cdr: Barca:Sociedad 5:2
1. Messi
2. Denis
3. Suarez

Betis:Barca 1:1
1. Mats
2. Messi
3. Pique

February:
Cdr: Atletico:Barca 1:2
1. Messi
2. Suarez
3. Umtiti

Barca:Bilbao 3:0
1. Neymar
2. Mats
3. Vidal

Alaves:Barca 0:6
1. Suarez
2. Messi
3. Vidal

Psg:Barca 4:0
1. Neymar
2. Mats
3. Alba

Barca:Leganes 2:1
1. Mats
2. Messi
3. Mathieu

At. Madrid:Barca 1:2
1. Mats
2. Neymar
3. Pique

March:
Barca:Gijon 6:1
1. Messi
2. Neymar
3. Suarez

Barca:Celta 5:0
1. Messi
2. Neymar
3. Rakitic

Barcasg 6:1
1. Neymar
2. Busquets
3. Umtiti

Barca:Valencia 4:2
1. Messi
2. Neymar
3. Suarez

17 matches where Messi and Neymar played together in 2017.
Mom total:
Messi 7 matches
Neymar 6 matches

In top3 best Barca's performers in these 17 matches:
Mesi 12 times in top3 (out of 17 matches)
Neymar 10 times in top3 (out of 17 matches)

If a Mom 1st place is 3 points, 2nd place worth 2 points and 3rd place worth 1 point, total is:
Messi:
1st place: 7 times=7x3 points=21 points
2nd place: 5 times=5x2 points=10 points
3rd place: 0 times
Out of top3 performers: 5 times

Neymar:
1st place: 6 times=6x3 points=18 points
2nd place: 4 times=4x2 points=8 points
3rd place: - times
Out of top3 performers: 7 times

Total:
Messi 31 points, according to Barcaforum's Man of the match thread, in 2017.
Neymar 26 points.

Now, note that football can be viewed both through:
1. stats
2. through people's subjective measurements. Imo, Man of the match thread falls into that category of "more subjective" view and where way more things than goals and assists are looked at. People measure influence, dribbles, goals, stats, workrate, passion, everything in that thread.

Now, what I am trying to say is: people are still "high" on emotions from Psg's 6:1 epic win and people are slightly blinded by the last 3-4 weeks of Neymar's awesome play and now they revised the past (the whole 2017) and it sounds as if Neymar has been on the current level of form for way longer than he currently is.

For the end, in total:
If you want to look at stats (goals+assists), best players in 2017 in our team are in this order:
1. Messi
2. Suarez
3. Neymar

If you want to look at football in a more subjective way, based on opinions from 10-20-30 people in a Barcaforum's Man of the match thread, then our best performers (aside from stats) in 2017 are (in this order):
1. Messi
2. Neymar
3. Mats
4. Suarez

If we sum those 2 together, 2017 is (imo) something like:
1. Messi (best both in stats and in a subjective view of majority of BF users)
2. Neymar/Suarez tied (Suarez better in stats, Neymar better in a subjective view)

 

[dakt]

Neymar is a frustrating player but he's played well recently.

Indeed he did. But my God some people can't wait to start the fireworks way before the midnight. Just imagine the likes of Hazard or Grizman having a WC performance just for couple of months in a row. Would we still consider them as the "Best player in the world"?
And how can we ever know if players like these two wouldn't be just as good or even better than Neymar if they were to play for Barca? I'm sorry, in the Messi era (when Lio is playing at his peak), you have to be a giant for much longer to be called The Best.
Also, I would really appropriate improving the score sheet. I don't expect friking pichichi, but at lease to be noticeably better then some of our midfielders (Rafinha or Rakitic). Remember we are talking about The Best Footballer, so that isn't unjustified requirement. When in chance, score, be deadly.

With that said, he's surly on the climbing path and I'm excited to see where it ends....as long as he plays for Barca, that is...and I hope he reaches his peak here as The Best.

 

[JamDav1982]

There is no way Suarez and Neymar are tied and none of that takes into account the huge game Ney had vs PSG which kept Barcelona hopes alive and counts for more than goals in La Liga. Cant compare them equally.

Ney is in the conversation for his form this year and amazing game vs PSG that kept Barca in CL. He was also by far the best out of MSN in away game against PSG as well.

Why only count the games Messi and Neymar played together in these stats? Add the game last night where would guess Ney was voted second best and the game away to Depor.

 

[FlaFCB]

There is no way Suarez and Neymar are tied and none of that takes into account the huge game Ney had vs PSG which kept Barcelona hopes alive and counts for more than goals in La Liga. Cant compare them equally.

Ney is in the conversation for his form this year and amazing game vs PSG that kept Barca in CL. He was also by far the best out of MSN in away game against PSG as well.

Why only count the games Messi and Neymar played together in these stats? Add the game last night where would guess Ney was voted second best and the game away to Depor.

If the performance vs psg had been Messi's or suarez's, the praise here would still be going on... But it's barely mentioned now. Sadly it's how things are here.

 

[Pedro]

And even in those 3 Months and slightly before that, his play looked like this:
2016: a crap. Couldn't score, couldn't pass, couldn't influence matches, couldn't control matches.
2017, January: still a crap in terms of passing, scoring. BUT he started to work hard and defend like crazy.
2017, February: still horrible in attack, but running like crazy in defense.
2017, March: suddenly more influental in attack. His passes finally make sense. He can finally dribble and do something after a dribble. His scoring is still horrible.
2017, April: Barcaforum pronounces him as the best player in the world.

Pure gold

Even for people who are talking about legacy and current form, well even a current form:
January:
Messi: 6 goals, 1 assist
Naymar: 3 goals, - assists
Suarez: 6 goals, 1 assist

February:
Messi: 6 goals, - assists
Neymar: 1 goal, 1 assist
Suarez: 4 goals, 4 assists

March:
Messi: 6 goals, 3 assists
Neymar: 5 goals, 4 assists
Suarez: 6 goals, 1 assist

Total:
Messi 2017: 20 matches, 18 goals, 4 assists=22 "points"
Suarez 2017: 20 matches, 16 goals, 6 assists=22 "points"
Neymar 2017: 18 matches, 9 goals, 5 assists=14 "points"

So:
1. if we look at the last 10 years: Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
2. if we look at the last 5 years: Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
3. if we look at the last 12 Months: Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
4. if we look at the last 3 Months (2017'): Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
5. if we look at the last 30 days: they are tied more or less

I guess that we will have a good old forum reasoning here:
1. if your favorite player is scoring and assisting like crazy currently=USE stats and numbers then as a key proof of his abilities
2. if your favorite player is scoring and assisting less than some other players, but you want to prove that he is the best=USE a good old: "Football is much more than stats"

Anyway, I am happy with Neymar's current performances.
I hope he'll continue this way.
But he played good for the last 30 days (since Psg's 2nd leg) and suddenly he is the best player in the world
Ok, so in the current era even 1 Month of a good form is enough to be a best player in the world.

2017's forum logic

Neymar plays predominantly Wide on the left, whereas Messi and Suarez do tend to be more central at times, so ofcourse Neymar's gonna score less, stupid comparisons.

 

[JamDav1982]

BBZ tries to dismiss Neymar as 'horrible in attack in February but running like crazy' then post stats to show he was voted Barcas best outfield player in three of the six games he played in that month.

Then tries to claim Neymar only been good for last 30 days since PSG second leg but then shows that Neymar in the seven games previous to that was voted Barcas second best player three times and best outfield player twice.

January apparently he was 'crap in terms of passing and scoring' but was voted MOTM in three of the six games he played.

The only one going over the top about Neymars up turn in form are the ones trying to make out he was shit before and only started playing well recently.

 

[Neymessi]

He has been better amongst all of MSN in 2017 taking all things into account and not just stats. That should be a very unanimous consensus.

I don't think anyone claimed him to have overtaken messi or that messi's days are over but people are way insecure about messi and always take things the wrong way. There will never be much appreciation here for neymar. As someone rightly said above had suarez or messi did what neymar did against PSG it would have been portrayed as the second coming of jesus and we wouldn't have heard the end of it. Half of the members would have changed the avatar to messi or suarez crushing destroying PSG. Neymar got some appreciation for a day or two but that was it. Roll on some weeks to now and its back to how it was before.

This thread always swings between 'sell him to psg he is too shit' or 'you crazy mate he isn't nowhere near messi'.

Some people are really obsessed with him to the point of manipulating facts to belittle him. I like how the 'detailed' post above tries to show how neymar hasn't been that great by treating all kinds of matches equally but not so long ago he was showing stats as to how neymar had been playing bad in big games and his goals and assists were coming when we were already winning 3:0 or 4:0.

He was also never as bad in 2016 as much as some selected forum members made him out to be but thats a whole different debate.

 

[te amo barca]

And even in those 3 Months and slightly before that, his play looked like this:
2016: a crap. Couldn't score, couldn't pass, couldn't influence matches, couldn't control matches.
2017, January: still a crap in terms of passing, scoring. BUT he started to work hard and defend like crazy.
2017, February: still horrible in attack, but running like crazy in defense.
2017, March: suddenly more influental in attack. His passes finally make sense. He can finally dribble and do something after a dribble. His scoring is still horrible.
2017, April: Barcaforum pronounces him as the best player in the world.

Pure gold

Even for people who are talking about legacy and current form, well even a current form:
January:
Messi: 6 goals, 1 assist
Naymar: 3 goals, - assists
Suarez: 6 goals, 1 assist

February:
Messi: 6 goals, - assists
Neymar: 1 goal, 1 assist
Suarez: 4 goals, 4 assists

March:
Messi: 6 goals, 3 assists
Neymar: 5 goals, 4 assists
Suarez: 6 goals, 1 assist

Total:
Messi 2017: 20 matches, 18 goals, 4 assists=22 "points"
Suarez 2017: 20 matches, 16 goals, 6 assists=22 "points"
Neymar 2017: 18 matches, 9 goals, 5 assists=14 "points"

So:
1. if we look at the last 10 years: Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
2. if we look at the last 5 years: Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
3. if we look at the last 12 Months: Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
4. if we look at the last 3 Months (2017'): Messi (and Suarez) are better than Neymar
5. if we look at the last 30 days: they are tied more or less

I guess that we will have a good old forum reasoning here:
1. if your favorite player is scoring and assisting like crazy currently=USE stats and numbers then as a key proof of his abilities
2. if your favorite player is scoring and assisting less than some other players, but you want to prove that he is the best=USE a good old: "Football is much more than stats"

Anyway, I am happy with Neymar's current performances.
I hope he'll continue this way.
But he played good for the last 30 days (since Psg's 2nd leg) and suddenly he is the best player in the world
Ok, so in the current era even 1 Month of a good form is enough to be a best player in the world.

2017's forum logic

Your use of goal and assists stats to prove this does not make sense. They do not represent everything, and you know it. You just like to twist the information the way it suits you. There are some good points in your posts but your bias is astonishing. Nothing new though.