Neymar Jr. - v5

[Barcaman]

You are way off mate. I certainly wouldn't root for, let'say, Chelsea or City if Messi moved there.

I fell in love with this team during Cruyff and watching some no-name youngsters playing beautiful football.

I get the notion that players mesmerize fans. Hristo, Ronaldo, Figo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho.. I loved them all. I was heartbroken when Ronaldo left for Inter but never rooted for them. Quite the opposite, I started to dislike them.

That being said, Messi is god among gods. He will never leave.

 

[snowy]

damn you guys are hardcore!

That being said, Messi is god among gods. He will never leave.

yeah he truly madly deeply is

 

[BBZ8800]

Eto'o was better than Suarez. Both Ronnie and Eto'o were better than Neymar and Suarez. Suarez can still top Eto'o if he continues to score for 3-4 seasons and wins us trophies, but I feel that Eto'o was way more clinical and not so dependent on service.

Yes. About Eto'o, I think that a lot of people here (and in general) think of Etoo from 2008/09 when he was quite poor.
And then people probably didn't watch him in 2004/05 and 2005/06, or they forgot how well he played back then (because of a weaker finishing form in his last years here).

About Suarez and Etoo, Etoo was fast as a lightning and was able to create chances all by himself (he didn't rely that much on service).
Suarez probably is more lethal, but Etoo would get into more chances because he was insanely fast.
Also, I remember how he Etoo pressured opponent in his early years here.
I always thought: this guy is either possessed or on some drugs. A normal human can't run this much, this guy is crazy

Also, Etoo's first season in 2004/05, he scored 24 La liga goals in his debut season, in the era when Barca and top teams were scoring only 73 (Barca) and 71 (Real) goals over 38 matches. So, less than 2 goals per match.
In 2004/05, Etoo scored 24 La liga goals, Ronnie 15, Guily 11.
In 2005/06, Etoo scored 26 La Liga goals, Ronnie 9, Guily 1, Messi 6.

Also, my opinion is still that it was a different football back then and Barca/RM weren't so rich as today, so it was way harder to win against small teams and to score goals.
Messi, for example scored only 6 La liga goals in 17 matches in 2006, then 14 goals (24 matches) in 2007 and 10 goals (28 matches) in 2008.
So, if young Messi (aged 19, 20 and 21) scored only 30 La liga goals in those 3 years (59 appearances), then people will understand how good was young Samuel Etoo in 2005 and 2006 when he scored 51 La liga goals in those 2 years (Ronaldinho "only" 24).

Back then Etoo was my favorite player because he was scoring like crazy, and running like crazy like possessed.
For example, his debut season for Barca in 2004/05 (25 La liga goals right away), and he was (with Ronnie) a key player for winning our first La liga since 1999':

Also, when I watch a video with Ronaldinho-Etoo-Messi from 2005/06, I can see now how insanely fast was young Messi compared to a current Messi.
In general, all 3 guys in REM attack were fast like a lightning.
And sorry MSN, but I would trade you for this REM attack in a heartbeat:

 

[Alik]

Not fair to compare this crap version of MSN against prime version REM.

 

[Neymessi]

Barca fans are used to different kind of football. Keeping the ball, short passes, playing for the team. Neymar is not in that mould so that's probably another reason why he rubs some of us the wrong way. And then there's his attitude.

One can also go into how he's not that into Barca as he is more a Messi fan, corruption and price of his transfer, what he delivers for his wages, etc..

Can understand most of these things mentioned but why is his attitude considered bad? Even in his shit games he can be seen tirelessly working and trying to make things happen. No?

 

[El Barcelona]

Ronaldinho, Etoo en Messi is also my favorite. Good memories, football was a joy to watch then.

 

[Jadentheman]

Not fair to compare this crap version of MSN against prime version REM.

Best analysis should be 14-15 MSN vs 05-06 REM. REM edges out slightly though. It's dependant on if you compare R10 against Messi of now/Neymar against Messi of 2006. or R10 against Neymar/Messi now vs Messi then

 

[BBZ8800]

Not fair to compare this crap version of MSN against prime version REM.

True.
But one of the problems with MSN (mostly Neymar, and then Suarez to some extent) is that MSN played magically only for 12 Months EVER.
In the 2nd half of 2014/15 and in the first half of 2015/16.

In the first half of 2014/15, we were absolutely horrible both to watch plus results were poor.
In spring of 2016, we lost a CL and almost lost 10 points advantage over Real in La Liga, so it was far from "magic".
This season, well, no need to explain the level of "MSN" magic currently.

Others could reply that Ronaldinho+Etoo also weren't on prime for too long.
Well, at least they were on prime together for 2 seasons in a row (full 2004/05 and full 2005/06). Plus Ronnie was insane in a season before without Etoo and Messi (2003/04) in a one-man show Barca.
Also, in 2006/07, we didn't won titles but we at least played semi-good (we lost a title to Real, but we both had 76+76 points).
Season after that was poor and Ronnie declined a lot.

So, Raonaldinho-Etoo had 2 or 3 full seasons on prime (without pauses). Ronaldinho had 3-4 seasons on his prime (2003/04, 04/05, 05/06 and 06/07).
Ronaldinho-Etoo-Messi also had at least 2 good seasons without pauses (2005/06 and 2006/07).

So, you are right, we should compare prime MSN with prime REM.
But also, we should take into the account (as it seems for now): MSN were on prime for 12 Months and we are yet to see whether they will ever again reach those heights (I doubt it).

Best analysis should be 14-15 MSN vs 05-06 REM. REM edges out slightly though. It's dependant on if you compare R10 against Messi of now/Neymar against Messi of 2006. or R10 against Neymar/Messi now vs Messi then

I would compare:
Messi now: Ronnie then
-- let's say 10:9,5 for current Messi
Suarez now: Etoo then 8:8,5
Neymar now: Messi then 8:8,5

Let's say MSN prime:REM prime 26:26,5
Plus, a point of two bonus for REM because they lasted longer. That's also important (imo).

Sorry for quoting myself:

Neymar now: Messi then 8:8,5

I have just watched this video and I realized that no one can ever give a grade lower than 10 to Messi, regardless if he was aged 13 or 33, lol.
Messi is Messi and even a 19-20 years old Messi is better than almost all players ever (except maybe 2-3 best guys in their prime like Ronnie and Ronaldo the Brasilian):

So, REM wins again in my eyes, since they had the one and only Messi, plus Ronnie, plus Etoo.
Messi is Messi, Ronnie is better than all other players, and that's the end of a story.
There is no way that MSN can beat Ronnie-Messi attack...

** Oleguer was so bad and dumb in this match, ouch.

 

[Barcaman]

Etoo and Suarez are about equal imo.

Really hard to compare as systems are different and it's a different era when less goals were scored.

We've been lucky to have Messi who took Ronaldinho's mantle as leader of Barca. Many thought Neymar will continue the cycle but noone really sees that happening anymore even if he somehow becomes that leader he isn't really that attached to Barca and won't stay here for many more years.

 

[bismp]

True.
But one of the problems with MSN (mostly Neymar, and then Suarez to some extent) is that MSN played magically only for 12 Months EVER.
In the 2nd half of 2014/15 and in the first half of 2015/16.

In the first half of 2014/15, we were absolutely horrible both to watch plus results were poor.
In spring of 2016, we lost a CL and almost lost 10 points advantage over Real in La Liga, so it was far from "magic".
This season, well, no need to explain the level of "MSN" magic currently.

Others could reply that Ronaldinho+Etoo also weren't on prime for too long.
Well, at least they were on prime together for 2 seasons in a row (full 2004/05 and full 2005/06). Plus Ronnie was insane in a season before without Etoo and Messi (2003/04) in a one-man show Barca.
Also, in 2006/07, we didn't won titles but we at least played semi-good (we lost a title to Real, but we both had 76+76 points).
Season after that was poor and Ronnie declined a lot.

So, Raonaldinho-Etoo had 2 or 3 full seasons on prime (without pauses). Ronaldinho had 3-4 seasons on his prime (2003/04, 04/05, 05/06 and 06/07).
Ronaldinho-Etoo-Messi also had at least 2 good seasons without pauses (2005/06 and 2006/07).

So, you are right, we should compare prime MSN with prime REM.
But also, we should take into the account (as it seems for now): MSN were on prime for 12 Months and we are yet to see whether they will ever again reach those heights (I doubt it).



I would compare:
Messi now: Ronnie then
-- let's say 10:9,5 for current Messi
Suarez now: Etoo then 8:8,5
Neymar now: Messi then 8:8,5

Let's say MSN prime:REM prime 26:26,5
Plus, a point of two bonus for REM because they lasted longer. That's also important (imo).

Sorry for quoting myself:


I have just watched this video and I realized that no one can ever give a grade lower than 10 to Messi, regardless if he was aged 13 or 33, lol.
Messi is Messi and even a 19-20 years old Messi is better than almost all players ever (except maybe 2-3 best guys in their prime like Ronnie and Ronaldo the Brasilian):

So, REM wins again in my eyes, since they had the one and only Messi, plus Ronnie, plus Etoo.
Messi is Messi, Ronnie is better than all other players, and that's the end of a story.
There is no way that MSN can beat Ronnie-Messi attack...

** Oleguer was so bad and dumb in this match, ouch.

You are being completely unfair.You count REM's greatness not as a whole trio,which was 3 seasons(05/06 to 07/08),but in reality far less as were shit in 07/08 and in a big part of 06/07(iirc),but as REM's greatness=REM+RE+EM=04/05 to 08/09=5 years.Which in reality was only one year,maybe two.You even almost put Ronnie's individual greatness before even Eto'o arrived into the equation.

In the meanwhile,you only credit 1 year to the MSN,which in reality is much more.You conveniently discredit the fist part of the 14/15 season and the whole 2016,keeping only 2015.I really doubt that MSN in 2016 was worse than REM in 2007.Using your logic,MN was great in 13/14 because we lost the Liga in the final match(like 06/07).You also conveniently assume that we are going to win nothing this year and the years to come.

Assuming that 05/06 was Messi's breakout year and that we are going to win nothing this season:

REM in 3 years: 1 CL and 1 Liga
MSN in 3 years:1 CL and 2 Ligas

 

[mark1nhu]

Can understand most of these things mentioned but why is his attitude considered bad? Even in his shit games he can be seen tirelessly working and trying to make things happen. No?

Only Suarez can be praised for that, how you still didn't learn it?

 

[SeloBarca]

Also, when I watch a video with Ronaldinho-Etoo-Messi from 2005/06, I can see now how insanely fast was young Messi compared to a current Messi.
[/video]

He might not have scored as many goals, but that acceleration was
Still love him, but i miss the acceleration and pace, the rawness, he had back then.

 

[raedkuwait]

mmmmmm, i also think the supporting cast back then was much better than now, from defense to midfield
so that helped we had prime players at every position back then

 

[BBZ8800]

mmmmmm, i also think the supporting cast back then was much better than now, from defense to midfield
so that helped we had prime players at every position back then

In 2004/05, for example, in autumn: our first choice CDM Edmilsone broke knee ligaments and was out for a season.
(Our midfield was Edmilson-Deco-Xavi).
Our 2nd choice CDM was Thiago Motta.
He stepped in instead of Edmilson and also broke knee ligaments right away (September and October).
He was out for a season.
Then we didn't have CDM's left (except Xavi), but our only CMs were Xavi, Iniesta, young Iniesta and Gerard who wasn't good enough.
So, instead of wasting Xavi at Cdm, Rijkaard moved Rafael Marquez from a CB to CDM. But his midfield abilities were quite similar to a current Mascherano (good in defense, quite poor in build up, linking up, passing and attack for Barca's level).
Also, in the same autumn, Cf Larsson also broke knee ligaments and was out for a season, and backup RB/CM Gabri also injured knee ligaments.

So basically, out of 4 Cfs (Ronnie, Etoo, Guily, Larsson) we were left with 3 Cfs for the whole season, we couldn't do any rotations and save the energy.
So, young Iniesta had to step in and play LW in some matches to rotate/rest Ronnie and Etoo.
Out of 2 Cdms, we were left with 0.
Out of 3 Cbs: Puyol, Marquez, Oleguer, we were left with only 1 since Marquez was moved into midfield.
Also, a 2nd pick RB was out for a season.

That means that in defense we had only 5 players Gio/Sylvinho, Puyol, Oleguer, Belletti.
And zero options when Puyol and oleguer were out (except moving Marquez back to defense and playing Gerard/Xavi as a Cdm).

So, for example, when Ronnie-Etoo were playing like crazy, we had a Marquez-Xavi-Deco midfield which is miles weaker than Busi-Xavi-Deco, for example.
Alos, current Iniesta-Raki-Busi isn't weaker than a midfield where you have Rafael Marquez (I love him, but...)

In the 2nd best season of Ronnie-Etoo (2005/06), or the first one of Roinnie-Etoo-Messi, Xavi was injured in December (knee injury again), and was out for a season.
So, in that season when we won a treble, our midfield trios were:
Edmilson-Deco, Van Bommel
Or Edmilson-Deco, Iniesta
Or Edmilson+Motta double pivot plus Deco (like against Chelsea).

Van Bommel didn't fit to our style, he wasn't our kind of a player.
Edmilson is a good Brasilian, but miles behind Busi.
Motta is just a defensive minded Cdm-Cm, miles behind majority of our players.

So, again, imo, when someone says:

mmmmmm, i also think the supporting cast back then was much better than now, from defense to midfield
so that helped we had prime players at every position back then

That sounds just like an excuse for Neymar or players who play weaker today.
As if everything is wrong today (a bad coach, a bad tactics, bad teammates).

One more time, Ronnie and Etoo in had their best days:
-- in 2004/05 with zero attacking options on the bench (Larsson injured, Messi didn't exist then)
-- with only 2 Cbs (Puyol and Oleguer), and again one of those guys was named OLEGUER, a guy who can ruin your match in any single moment
-- without 2 Cdms and with Marquez as a CDm, who is the same as Mascherano

In the 2nd season (2005/06)
-- they played the whole season without Xavi, and Iniesta wasn't playing too much
-- we had tall guys far from Barca's style in Edmilson, Motta, Van Bommel and only Deco who had Barca's DNA

So, imo, saying that a team back then was much better is not true.
Those teams had a lot of flaws (some weak players like Oleguer, Belletti, Guily), tons of injuries in each season.
But they played awesome because Ronnie, Etoo and other guys had insane mental strength and awesome leadership ability and love for our club.

On the other hand, just look at some other facts:
Messi's debut season: he won a treble and played like crazy in 2005/06
Ronnie's debut Barca's season: he led Barca from 10th place to almost winning a title with crazy 2nd part of a season when we had 10+ wins in La liga in a row, which we hadn't achieved for 5-6 years in a row. So, he played world class right away at Barca.
Etoo's debut season: La liga title, scored 24 goals (3rd of our goals), by far our best scorer

Some players come here and always get excuses:
This is his first season.
He needs to adapt.
He is young.
He is yet to reach his peak.
He will be better etc.

On the other hand, you have players who come here and play like Gods from a day one, like Ronnie, Etoo, Messi etc.

For example, Ronaldinho's 2nd official match for Barca, and his debut at Camp Nou in 2003. (We won 0:1 away at Bilbao in the first round, with Cocu's goal).
This is how God Ronaldinho debuted infront of Barcelona's Camp Nou crowd:

Some players are just players.
Some players are Messi, Ronaldinho and similar guys... No fear, no excuses. Just world class play from the day 1 and for years after that.

 

[Total-Football]

some of the stuff you write is good some not so much .. you seem to shift interpretations left and right to prove a point.

When Ronney came in 2003 he didn't play " like a God from day one " (your words) , had he played like one, we wouldn't have been a "literally" midtable team up until the winter break. He was still adapting to the league, and couldn't yet find the combination of efficiency/spectacle. It took fuck up after fuck up for him to find the position where to operate at ease ( LW ) and understand when and when not to do those blind passes/flip flops etcs .. I don't know if you remember that apalling first half of the season or you're just writing on top of the dome. Because if you do, you wouldn't write stuff like that.