Ousmane Dembélé

[KingLeo10]

Let's see the current wingers (not prime messi and prime Neymar) around the world with better stats, preferably not from farmers' leagues

Mbape (from farmers league tho), Vini, Salah, and who else?

Gnabry has 8 goals and 3 assists in 15 Bundesliga games at Bayern. Don't know his CL stats but his Bundesliga output of 11 G + A in 15 is superior to Dembele's this season.

Sane also has like 14 G + A in 19 games at Bayern.

 

[Porque]

Leao
Kvicha?

Dembele had a stinker, but he is the least of our worries. And his sunk transfer cost should be long forgotten.

 

[KingLeo10]

For me, the tiers go as follows

Supernatural level: Messi (14-15, 08-09) 1.3 - 1.5 G + A per game
Best in the world level: Prime Neymar, Prime Salah, Robben, Ribery ~ 0.8 - 1 G + A per game
Elite: Vinicius Gnabry Sane etc. ~ 0.7 G + A per game
Good: Dembele 0.5 G + A per game

I think we should be looking at elite tier and not good.

 

[Zidane82]

Dembele is either unplayable or simply useless .. on any given day
I think we should sell him and keep Raphinha

 

[Birdy]

For me, the tiers go as follows

Supernatural level: Messi (14-15, 08-09) 1.3 - 1.5 G + A per game
Best in the world level: Prime Neymar, Prime Salah, Robben, Ribery ~ 0.8 - 1 G + A per game
Elite: Vinicius Gnabry Sane etc. ~ 0.7 G + A per game
Good: Dembele 0.5 G + A per game

I think we should be looking at elite tier and not good.

Again tinkering with the categories so as to suit the agenda
like saying 0.7 is very different from 0.8 so to fit another category in there and relegate Dembele below

The examples of the current wingers in all clubs that are better than Dembele are telling
Dembele is elite, and only a handful of people currently can legitimately be said the be better wingers than him

All the rest is fluffy hate speech who fantasizes that 'all the other wingers' that 'all top clubs have' that are better than him

 

[KingLeo10]

Again tinkering with the categories so as to suit the agenda
like saying 0.7 is very different from 0.8 so to fit another category in there and relegate Dembele below

The examples of the current wingers in all clubs that are better than Dembele are telling
Dembele is elite, and only a handful of people currently can legitimately be said the be better wingers

All the rest is fluffy hate speech who fantasize 'all the other wingers' that 'all top clubs have' that are better than him

There isn't a linear increase in difficulty across G + A output.

For example, going from 0.5 G + A to 0.6 G + A is easier than going from 0.7 G + A to 0.8 G + A, but in both cases the difference in output is 0.10. Not to mention I gave a range of 0.8 - 1, so if you were being fair, you would have noted the difference is a range 0.10 to 0.30 G + A, which is absolutely a whole another tier.

Elite wingers are generally starters at CL contenders (Bayern, RM, Pool etc.) while prime Neymar, Salah, Robben, Ribery were all at some point recognized as THE best winger in the world with a peak production of around 1 G + A across a season or multiple seasons. That should be a distinct category from elite.

Dembele is a 0.5 G + A player, and deservedly starts for a Europa level team. He's not elite.

 

[Birdy]

There isn't a linear increase in difficulty across G + A output.

For example, going from 0.5 G + A to 0.6 G + A is easier than going from 0.7 G + A to 0.8 G + A, but in both cases the difference in output is 0.10. Not to mention I gave a range of 0.8 - 1, so if you were being fair, you would have noted the difference is a range 0.10 to 0.30 G + A, which is absolutely a whole another tier.

Elite wingers are generally starters at CL contenders (Bayern, RM, Pool etc.) while prime Neymar, Salah, Robben, Ribery were all at some point recognized as THE best winger in the world with a peak production of around 1 G + A across a season or multiple seasons. That should be a distinct category from elite.

Dembele is a 0.5 G + A player, and deservedly starts for a Europa level team. He's not elite.

More tinkering with the non-linear increase in difficulty.
absolutely arbitrary how you set up the numbers, why this range, why transitioning to the next category at X and not Y number, etc

Just realized also that you falsified the stats maybe unintendedly
these stats have a meaning if you calculate them per 90 min as in all serious stat companies
Guess what: Dembele had 0.89 G+A per 90 last season, and 0.91 G+A per 90 this season (Vini has 0.62 LOL)
So according to your 'objective' carving of the numbers into categories, he has been elite the last two seasons. Oh well...

 

[CatalinR10]

bruh he fucking dogshit

can't believe that we are still talking about this guy's potential while the best thing he ever did was score a wc goal against fucking tottenham like 5 years ago or whatever


smhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[KingLeo10]

More tinkering with the non-linear increase in difficulty.
absolutely arbitrary how you set up the numbers, why this range, why transitioning to the next category at X and not Y number, etc

Just realized also that you falsified the stats maybe unintendedly
these stats have a meaning if you calculate them per 90 min as in all serious stat companies
Guess what: Dembele had 0.89 G+A per 90 last season, and 0.9 G+A per 90 this season
So according to your 'objective' carving of the numbers into categories, he has been elite the last two seasons. Oh well...

1) I began with "for me, the tiers go as follows". What I then proposed was a reasonable categorization with representative player examples. Messi is different to Neymar/Salah/Robben/Ribery who are different to Sane/Gnabry/Vini who are different to Dembele. Give me a reasonable counter example for why that list of players should be categorized different.

2) If you're going to accuse others of manipulating stats (I always said the categorization was based on G + A per game so there was no deceit intended). But if you want to go per 90, the categorizations will have to be revised, as the per 90 categorizations are by definition the same or higher than per game.

3) Mostly importantly, at least get your own stats right (https://www.transfermarkt.us/ousmane-dembele/leistungsdaten/spieler/288230). Dembele is 0.82 G + A per 90 this season.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/leroy-sane/leistungsdaten/spieler/192565 Sane is 16 G + A (I actually underrated his stats earlier if anything lmao) = 1.23 G + A per 90.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/serge-gnabry/leistungsdaten/spieler/159471 Gnabry is 16 G + A (in CL + Bundesliga) = 1.36 G + A per 90.

So no, Dembele is not elite and miles behind Sane and Gnabry in per 90 stats as well.

Try again.

 

[KingLeo10]

Lol, looking at last season:

Dembele is NOT 0.89 G + A per 90 https://www.transfermarkt.us/ousmane-dembele/leistungsdaten/spieler/288230/saison/2021/plus/1 He's 0.69 G + A per 90 across all competitions

Sane is 0.88 G + A per 90 last season https://www.transfermarkt.com/leroy-sane/leistungsdaten/spieler/192565/saison/2021/wettbewerb/L1

Gnabry is 0.85 G + A per 90 last season https://www.transfermarkt.us/serge-gnabry/leistungsdaten/spieler/159471/plus/0?saison=2021

So, no your boy was clearly inferior to Sane and Gnabry all of last season as well. I won't even bring in Salah or Vinicius who absolutely crush him in all likelihood

 

[KingLeo10]

As expected, likes of Salah/Neymar/Robben/Ribery are a different class to Sane/Gnabry/Vini etc.

Salah last season (as example): https://www.transfermarkt.us/mohamed-salah/leistungsdaten/spieler/148455/plus/0?saison=2021 = 1.05 G + A per 90

Absolute peak Salah (17-18): https://www.transfermarkt.us/mohamed-salah/leistungsdaten/spieler/148455/plus/0?saison=2017 = 1.31 G + A per 90

Ribery (12-13): https://www.transfermarkt.us/franck-ribery/leistungsdaten/spieler/22068/saison/2012/wettbewerb/WMQ6 = 0.96 G + A per 90

Robben (12-13): https://www.transfermarkt.us/arjen-robben/leistungsdaten/spieler/4360/saison/2012/wettbewerb/CL = 1.05 G + A per 90

Now, the best of them all, Messi (14-15): https://www.transfermarkt.us/lionel-messi/leistungsdaten/spieler/28003/saison/2014/plus//sort/tore = 1.58 G + A per 90

 

[Birdy]

1) I began with "for me, the tiers go as follows". What I then proposed was a reasonable categorization with representative player examples. Messi is different to Neymar/Salah/Robben/Ribery who are different to Sane/Gnabry/Vini who are different to Dembele. Give me a reasonable counter example for why that list of players should be categorized different.

2) If you're going to accuse others of manipulating stats (I always said the categorization was based on G + A per game so there was no deceit intended). But if you want to go per 90, the categorizations will have to be revised, as the per 90 categorizations are by definition the same or higher than per game.

3) Mostly importantly, at least get your own stats right (https://www.transfermarkt.us/ousmane-dembele/leistungsdaten/spieler/288230). Dembele is 0.82 G + A per 90 this season.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/leroy-sane/leistungsdaten/spieler/192565 Sane is 16 G + A (I actually underrated his stats earlier if anything lmao) = 1.23 G + A per 90.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/serge-gnabry/leistungsdaten/spieler/159471 Gnabry is 16 G + A (in CL + Bundesliga) = 1.36 G + A per 90.

So no, Dembele is not elite and miles behind Sane and Gnabry in per 90 stats as well.

Try again.

I used FBREF stats which don't calculate CL and League together, but only league.
But, still your point doesn't add up
Even according to your own categorization Sane and Gnabry should be there at the 'supernatural' level with Messi

Let's look at some more numbers, only in League and CL:
Salah this season (excluding pens and EFL game): 0.87 G+A / 90 min
Vini this season: 0.73 G+A /90 min
(BTW you should always talk about NON penalty goals whenever you do football stats)

So Dembele slightly only worse than Salah this season, same category in your scales prob,
and much better than Vini

AGAIN: no matter how you twist it and turn it, Dembele is elite and the odds are you can currently find only a handful of people with better stats than him, not two whole tiers

 

[Birdy]

As expected, likes of Salah/Neymar/Robben/Ribery are a different class to Sane/Gnabry/Vini etc.

Salah last season (as example): https://www.transfermarkt.us/mohamed-salah/leistungsdaten/spieler/148455/plus/0?saison=2021 = 1.05 G + A per 90

Absolute peak Salah (17-18): https://www.transfermarkt.us/mohamed-salah/leistungsdaten/spieler/148455/plus/0?saison=2017 = 1.31 G + A per 90

Ribery (12-13): https://www.transfermarkt.us/franck-ribery/leistungsdaten/spieler/22068/saison/2012/wettbewerb/WMQ6 = 0.96 G + A per 90

Robben (12-13): https://www.transfermarkt.us/arjen-robben/leistungsdaten/spieler/4360/saison/2012/wettbewerb/CL = 1.05 G + A per 90

Now, the best of them all, Messi (14-15): https://www.transfermarkt.us/lionel-messi/leistungsdaten/spieler/28003/saison/2014/plus//sort/tore = 1.58 G + A per 90

Dude you are giving G+A stats including pens in there. LOL
That's why we don't use transfermarkt
Serious stat sites have filters

 

[JohnN]

I don't think we really need stats to claim he is massively inconsistent. Still, our best winger currently. If raphinia improves on finishing and assist ratios on his second season (he is with us a really short time) he should be preferred to Dembele for his overall game. But both are not elite level in the traditional meaning of the word. They are ofcourse really good players but not the stars of any top team.

 

[KingLeo10]

Even according to your own categorization Sane and Gnabry should be there at the 'supernatural' level with Messi

You're either incapable of reading or being deliberately obtuse

1) I stated clearly my initial thresholds were PER GAME. Since you want to revise to PER 90, we still see the tiers I mentioned. PER 90 (FOR A WHOLE SEASON OR SEASONS),

Messi is at 1.6
Neymar/Salah/Robben/Ribery are around 1 -1.25
Sane/Gnabry are around 0.85
Dembele is around 0.70

As for why all of Dembele/Gnabry/Sane all have higher than their PER SEASON number this season, it's because we're 15-20 games in Lower sample size = more variability, but despite this Sane and Gnabry are clearly above Dembele on a 15-20 game sample or a whole season sample. And AFAIK, they aren't taking all the penalties are they?