Pedro Rodriguez

ZenI

Professor Balthazar
"Correlation does not imply causation".

Here in Brazil we have a player called "Dagoberto". He won the Brazilian League 5 times, with 3 different clubs.

Should I seriously argue about the identified ~pattern~ like you?



Pheeew. I almost think I was crazy!

;)



Man... Unbelievable.

Against Málaga:

Dani made a horrible mistake early on the game and then Málaga parked the bus, playing all match in counterattack.

A Málaga player blocked Rafinha's goal right above the line.

Aaaaaaand Pedro lost a GREAT opportunity created by... Neymar.

Against Celta:

Álvarez and his posts saved them at least in 6 opportunities, half from Messi. And then Nolito made an incredible and one of a kind backheel assist, fooling Dani, Mathieu and Sergio.

How your ~pattern~ explain our defeats?

I have a much better ~pattern~: we should never play Dani, Mathieu, Sergio and Bravo with home kit at Camp Nou when daylight is on.



As previous comment: unbelievable.



You are cherry-picking exactly what you want to see.

Correlation, the correct word for ~pattern~, could EASILY lead to wrong conclusions. The so-called fallacies.

BTW, "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.



I never said he was talking nonsense.

I just pointed an observation exactly to avoid wrong conclusions led by the correlations.

BURN! :lol:
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member

Burn, ok.

Whatever I will reply, we will go into circles, so no need for that.

When Rafinha plays, we lack a midfield stability=a fact, not based only on 2 matches, lol.
When Masch plays as a Dmc, we also lack midfield control, passing, movement, build up.
When Ney plays, he brings possible dribbles and Goals, but also, a team has less control and possession than with Pedro.

Put Iniesta+Rafinha in midfield=we lack control.
Put Rafinha+Mascherano in midfield=we lack control even more.
Put Rafinha+Neymar in the same time=we have less control than with Neymar+Xavi, or especially than with Xavi+Pedro.

It still doesn't mean that Neymar is bad.
But, when Neymar plays, other players around him should be Busi, Iniesta/Rakitic/Xavi.
NOT Dmc Mascherano or Mc Rafinha.

When Pedro plays, we lack creativity, but we get automatism, faster ball movement and more control.
When Pedro plays, we need Suarez and Messi in attack, to compensate his lack of "magic".
When Xavi plays, we get less speed and more control.

On the other hand, since Ney is bringing magic, but offers less automatism and ball/player (in Barca's style) movement, it would be better to surround him with classic Barca's players like Busi, Xavi, Iniesta or Sergi Roberto.
Surrounding Neymar with Dmc Masch and Mc Rafinha is asking for 0:1 defeats at home.

Each player brings something different, and each player plays better paired with different players and with each player on the field, our team will have more/less control/automatism and more/less vision/magic/dribbles.

So:


:rolleyes:
 
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BerkeleyBernie

Senior Member
Each player brings something different, and each player plays better paired with different players

That's it, in a nutshell. It's clear the Pep/La Masia players bring more control to the game, which is quite useful against some opponents, and adds some balance when mixed in.

And even though one can suggest individual instances that led to losses, one cannot ignore the context of the games. For instance, the team is more likely to make mistakes the more often they lose control of the ball: 1) the other team has more opportunities to force a mistake, 2) players get more tired by having to chase box to box more, and 3) are more likely to be caught with fewer outlet options to protect the ball. Or, if Neymar kills Barça attacks by ball-holding, that means the other prongs of the Barça attack see less of the ball than when the ball is recirculated. Etc, etc.
 
F

Flavia

Guest
Rumors of Pedro to Inter... He can do much better. If he leaves, should go to the epl.
 

Leo_Messi

New member
Rumors of Pedro to Inter... He can do much better. If he leaves, should go to the epl.

Much, much better to say the least. Not only that a move to England would benefit the club's pockets much more too.

On the other hand that Kovacic guy looks promising and Inter apparently looks to sell him. Reported by Sky Sport Italia earlier today.
 

mark1nhu

New member
Surrounding Neymar with Dmc Masch and Mc Rafinha is asking for 0:1 defeats at home.

Come on man... you are the one going into circles, making assumptions like that based on pretty weak correlations.

None of them were directly or indirectly responsible for our home defeats. And I guess the same also applies to away defeats, but I am too lazy to research.

You have nothing, I repeat, NOTHING to support your case.

Each player brings something different, and each player plays better paired with different players and with each player on the field, our team will have more/less control/automatism and more/less vision/magic/dribbles.

Well, this is just the obvious and I couldn't agree more. Just the very basics of squad depth.

Your point would be perfect if you stopped right there. But you insist to go further and to create ~facts~ out of nothing, like your previous statement.

That's it, in a nutshell. It's clear the Pep/La Masia players bring more control to the game, which is quite useful against some opponents, and adds some balance when mixed in.

It is obviously useful and I also love our old tiki-taka controlling game, but is not "easy" anymore to keep this type of game.

I even doubt we are able to sustain HALF that level of intensity.

We need our dynamo (Xavi) in full throttle mode and, most important of all, a weak or desperate enough opponent to still get fooled.

Lucky Pedro he had this two conditions yesterday and he could benefit from it, not lucky Barca we had him to build the tempo.

And even though one can suggest individual instances that led to losses, one cannot ignore the context of the games. For instance, the team is more likely to make mistakes the more often they lose control of the ball: 1) the other team has more opportunities to force a mistake, 2) players get more tired by having to chase box to box more, and 3) are more likely to be caught with fewer outlet options to protect the ball. Or, if Neymar kills Barça attacks by ball-holding, that means the other prongs of the Barça attack see less of the ball than when the ball is recirculated. Etc, etc.

About Málaga loss, please point me WHAT CONTEXT I am ignoring:

- in a mistake made by Dani around minute 6 of the first half, after a long ball reposition by Málaga's keeper;
- with Barca having fucking 73% of ball possession;
- with Barca making 579 completed passes and 88% of accuracy, against only 138 passes and 57% accuracy by Málaga;
- with Rafinha accomplishing 90.6% of passing accuracy, even though with only 32 completed passes;
- with Neymar accomplishing 87.1% of passing accuracy AND being third most passer with 70 passes;
- with Pedro not having God Xavi to make he shine, doing only 10 passes (0.41 p/min against 0.51 from Rafinha and 0.77 from Neymar);
- in a great opportunity lost by Pedro after a very good setup from Neymar;
- in a outside shoot from Rafinha blocked on the line by Málaga's defender.

About Celta loss, please point me WHAT CONTEXT I am ignoring:

- in a failed attempt from Dani to beat Nolito in a body challenge, after ANOTHER long ball reposition from keeper;
- in a magisterial and one-of-a-kind backheel assist from Nolito, fooling ALL 3 defenders around him;
- with Barca having 67% of ball possession;
- with Barca making 477 completed passes and 82% of accuracy, against only 178 passes and 63% accuracy by Celta;
- with Barca hitting the post 3 times (1 from Messi, 2 from Neymar - one being a GREAT shot from outside the box);
- with Álvarez making 6 great saves, 5 being just incredible (2 from Messi, 2 from Neymar, 2 from Suárez);
- with Celta's defender blocking a Messi's shot almost above the line, hitting the post after that.

* tbh, both Xavi and Pedro made more passes/min than Rafinha and Neymar, but this only prove their controlling impact on the game, not Rafinha and Neymar blame on the defeat because of a supposed lack of control, as seen above in possession and passes statistics, not to mention the missed opportunities.

- - -

What MAGICAL context could possibly blame Neymar, Rafinha or ANY OTHER PLAYER presence and impact on the pitch, beside Dani of course, for BOTH defeats?

I rest my case.

:angry:
 
tl;dr bbz style :lol:
this neymar war is getting tedious. By now you guys should know there is no changing some people's bias about it ;)

take comfort in the thought that 90% of users see neymar's input and potential, just as they see his undeniably poor form atm.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
It is obviously useful and I also love our old tiki-taka controlling game, but is not "easy" anymore to keep this type of game.

I even doubt we are able to sustain HALF that level of intensity.

We need our dynamo (Xavi) in full throttle mode and, most important of all, a weak or desperate enough opponent to still get fooled.

I am not talking about Tiki-Taka.
I personally don't like Tiki-Taka in 2015' and I am happy that we finally moved away from Tiki-Taka to Rijkaard's more direct possession+direct football.

But, there are some "levels":
1. old Tiki-Taka style
2. current, new system, with a lot of counterattacks, but with a decent amount of control, for example with Busi+Xavi+Rakitic/Iniesta+Pedro on the field
3. current, new system, with a lot of counterattacks, but with lower level of control compared to a level no2 from above, with Neymar+Busi+Iniesta+Rakitic
3. current, new system, with a lot of counterattacks, but with even less control in midfield compared to levels 2 and 3, with Neymar+Iniesta+Rafinha on the pitch together, for example

So, I am not calling for Tiki-Taka. It doesn't work anymore.
I am just saying that in the current system, there are still different levels of control in midfield based on which 6 players are playing in midfield+attack.

What MAGICAL context could possibly blame Neymar, Rafinha or ANY OTHER PLAYER presence and impact on the pitch, beside Dani of course, for BOTH defeats?

I rest my case.

:angry:

Just wait for future matches when Neymar+Iniesta+Rafinha will play together.
In 4 out of 5 matches, our midfield will be all over the place.

You will see patterns then and how "fluent" is our game on those days.
With or without mistakes from Dani Alves.

Anyway, I am not talking that we should bench Neymar when he is playing well, lol.
When he is playing well, let him play, but just don't play Rafinha and Neymar in the same match.

Also, when Neymar is poor, like currently, he should be benched, at least against midtable-lowtable teams.

And no, I don't think that on-form Pedro is better than on-form Neymar.
But I don't rate off-form Neymar as high as his fans.
 

Kohe321

New member
Article is spot on, excellent analysis. Thanks for the link.

You're welcome buddy :cheers:

And yeah I agree, this feels like a spot on analysis that pretty much hits the nail on the head regarding Pedro in Barca. Instead of going back and forth with wall of text warfare here, can't we all just get behind him and give the guy our support? I mean he's our player, and a club legend at that. The Neymar/Pedro thing has gotten to the point where people has chosen sides as if this was a feud between RM and Barca, and whenever one of them does poorly it's taken note of for use as ammunition in the forum battle later. I've been guilty of the same thing to an extent, but at the end of the day I really like both Pedro and Neymar and would really love it if the tone in here became a bit more positive.

Just my two cents on a beautiful and sunny day :barca scarf:
 
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Alik

Moderator
You're welcome buddy :cheers:

And yeah I agree, this feels like a spot on analysis that pretty much hits the nail on the head regarding Pedro in Barca. Instead of going back and forth with wall of text warfare here, can't we all just get behind him and give the guy our support? I mean he's our player, and a club legend at that. The Neymar/Pedro thing has gotten to the point where people has chosen sides as if this was a feud between RM and Barca, and whenever one of them does poorly it's taken note of for use as ammunition in the forum battle later. I've been guilty of the same thing to an extent, but at the end of the day I really like both Pedro and Neymar and would really love it if the tone in here became a bit more positive.

Just my two cents on a beautiful and sunny day :barca scarf:

:handshake:
 

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