Joan
Well-known member
Imagine how it feels for us here.
But I'm not even mad or sad or anything today.
Enjoy yourself tonight!
Penal Madrid
- Thread starter PearLBLacK
- Start date
Imagine how it feels for us here.
But I'm not even mad or sad or anything today.
Enjoy yourself tonight!
DonAK
President of FC Barcelona
Say whatever you want about them, but most CL titles in both football and basketball(Euroleague) is mighty impressive. Most league titles in both sports too.
Real Madrid are despicable in many ways, but they are tough as hell on people and their administrative structure. They hold people accountable and demand winning. They have some down periods like every team, but they always strive for greatness and for being better.
That's something Barca can learn from, especially the socis. Historically the club have been too much of a mess selfdestructing from within with poor leadership and administration which is in stark contrast to Real Madrid. The socis also seem to be happy to settle for less, which is reflected even on Barcaforum sometimes from even foreign fans. No offence, but that's pathetic. At least for me. Barca need to start holding people accountable and be more ruthless if need be. Don't need to copy Madrid, but you should develop that good system where winning and style matters a lot, and you do that by voting in the right people and voting out those that don't do their job.
Never settle for less. Strive for more.
Good leadership and administration also improves your influence and standing in UEFA and the ECA.
Also the press: Absolutely pathetic and puppets of the incumbent board. They never report negative news. Like Puyol talking about priorities. Mundo Deportivo and Sport barely have an article about it.
In Madrid they actually have the guts to criticize Flo and company.
Real Madrid are despicable in many ways, but they are tough as hell on people and their administrative structure. They hold people accountable and demand winning. They have some down periods like every team, but they always strive for greatness and for being better.
That's something Barca can learn from, especially the socis. Historically the club have been too much of a mess selfdestructing from within with poor leadership and administration which is in stark contrast to Real Madrid. The socis also seem to be happy to settle for less, which is reflected even on Barcaforum sometimes from even foreign fans. No offence, but that's pathetic. At least for me. Barca need to start holding people accountable and be more ruthless if need be. Don't need to copy Madrid, but you should develop that good system where winning and style matters a lot, and you do that by voting in the right people and voting out those that don't do their job.
Never settle for less. Strive for more.
Good leadership and administration also improves your influence and standing in UEFA and the ECA.
Also the press: Absolutely pathetic and puppets of the incumbent board. They never report negative news. Like Puyol talking about priorities. Mundo Deportivo and Sport barely have an article about it.
In Madrid they actually have the guts to criticize Flo and company.
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LosBlancos
New member
Prior to, I imagined I'd get a little less out of the celebrations this time since it was such an up and down season, but nope, every moment of watching the celebration in Madrid was enjoyable. 
Gaudi
Senior Member
Luck can happen one or two times, this is no luck. By that definition we really don't have any luck.
I still claim that our style will be our downfall and it is already. Not that i suggest we need to play completely different but without change we'll have simillar results next year.
Real has multiple weapons and that makes them big....they can soak up pressure, attack, counter, cross, pass in to the net, shot from distance....everything. We can control the game with passing and if that doesn't work we are out.
Imagine us having their midfield and play like them in the first half against L'pool, people here would demand heads...but it's always the same, Juve attacked as well and Real survived only to destroy them in the second half.
I think people here romanticize Pep's era but forget copule of things:
1. We started suffering in his last year as well
2. Opposition adapts...as simple as that, search some early Pep days and you'll see opposition chasing shadows all over the court, later they simply parked 3 defensive lines
3. We had once in a lifetime generations that was born and bread for that kind of football
I don't think anyone here wants us to play high crossing game but I firmly believe that possession must come only like a sidefect from dominance and not be our primary goal.
For example L'pool dominated Roma completely in first game but statistics says 50-50 possesion. Couple of days later they beat bournemouth (or something) and had 70% of the ball. Same with Bayern, Real...
I think this is one of main reasons why we can domninate the league but not champions leauge and Real beeing the opposite. Our style of slow and static passing with moments of greatness is more than enough for 95% of the teams...and we always manage to implement it. That is way we'll win majority of league games and have constant results, but in those couple of games when we fail to do that we collapse - year after year (and quite badly too, like 0:3, 1-4..etc...). RM on the other hand is a team that prioritize CL, that has to be said, but they are more reactive team, they don't have one pure style so smaller teams in the league can shut them down. When you don't have a particular style to ALWAYS call upon you need to be focused all the time and ih 38 matches they have bigger chance to screw it than us...but in those big matches they always have more weapons than the biggest teams left, while we don't.
I think luck has really little to do with that.
I still claim that our style will be our downfall and it is already. Not that i suggest we need to play completely different but without change we'll have simillar results next year.
Real has multiple weapons and that makes them big....they can soak up pressure, attack, counter, cross, pass in to the net, shot from distance....everything. We can control the game with passing and if that doesn't work we are out.
Imagine us having their midfield and play like them in the first half against L'pool, people here would demand heads...but it's always the same, Juve attacked as well and Real survived only to destroy them in the second half.
I think people here romanticize Pep's era but forget copule of things:
1. We started suffering in his last year as well
2. Opposition adapts...as simple as that, search some early Pep days and you'll see opposition chasing shadows all over the court, later they simply parked 3 defensive lines
3. We had once in a lifetime generations that was born and bread for that kind of football
I don't think anyone here wants us to play high crossing game but I firmly believe that possession must come only like a sidefect from dominance and not be our primary goal.
For example L'pool dominated Roma completely in first game but statistics says 50-50 possesion. Couple of days later they beat bournemouth (or something) and had 70% of the ball. Same with Bayern, Real...
I think this is one of main reasons why we can domninate the league but not champions leauge and Real beeing the opposite. Our style of slow and static passing with moments of greatness is more than enough for 95% of the teams...and we always manage to implement it. That is way we'll win majority of league games and have constant results, but in those couple of games when we fail to do that we collapse - year after year (and quite badly too, like 0:3, 1-4..etc...). RM on the other hand is a team that prioritize CL, that has to be said, but they are more reactive team, they don't have one pure style so smaller teams in the league can shut them down. When you don't have a particular style to ALWAYS call upon you need to be focused all the time and ih 38 matches they have bigger chance to screw it than us...but in those big matches they always have more weapons than the biggest teams left, while we don't.
I think luck has really little to do with that.
serghei
Senior Member
[MENTION=14062]Gaudi[/MENTION] what do you propose, throw our style out of the window to chase what exactly? Trying to immitate Madrid? Thanks, but no thanks.
No. We need to get back to implementing it but do it better. We didn't do it well enough and we don't work hard enough, that's why we suck in CL. It's not about our style failing. It's about us failing at implementing it, because of mediocre managers who are too scared to play it and unmotivated players who don't understand that hard work is the basis of a successful CL campaign.
If anything, we went out with Roma because we tried to imitate Madrid's style of sitting back and soaking up pressure. Not because we played our style and failed with it. Same with Juventus the year before. If anything, Lucho and Valverde have went well outside what we're known for, trying to make us play reactive on the break football, compact in defense with low block and with quick transition. Exactly like Madrid.
Our immense strenght which is the positional attack has suffered a lot in the last 2.5 years or so. It's basically the worst part of our game now going forward.
This is not Barca football what we're playing now. And our failures in CL should actually be seen as proof that not playing our style is not a good idea. Not more indication that we should ditch it even more.
No. We need to get back to implementing it but do it better. We didn't do it well enough and we don't work hard enough, that's why we suck in CL. It's not about our style failing. It's about us failing at implementing it, because of mediocre managers who are too scared to play it and unmotivated players who don't understand that hard work is the basis of a successful CL campaign.
If anything, we went out with Roma because we tried to imitate Madrid's style of sitting back and soaking up pressure. Not because we played our style and failed with it. Same with Juventus the year before. If anything, Lucho and Valverde have went well outside what we're known for, trying to make us play reactive on the break football, compact in defense with low block and with quick transition. Exactly like Madrid.
Our immense strenght which is the positional attack has suffered a lot in the last 2.5 years or so. It's basically the worst part of our game now going forward.
This is not Barca football what we're playing now. And our failures in CL should actually be seen as proof that not playing our style is not a good idea. Not more indication that we should ditch it even more.
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vlad
New member
Serghei, what exactly is barca style, barca before played more direct football, under pep it was another story, so what do you purpose, playing like under pep or before him? Lucho was closest with his tactic to coaches before pep.
Barca before pep didnt play much different then real, lets be honest about that.
And repeating pep's barca way of play, is not a way to go, firstly pep is only one, and most important "pep way" isnt right way to go in.CL as we can see, he is getting exposed there badly with top squad, surely this cant be the way to go
Barca before pep didnt play much different then real, lets be honest about that.
And repeating pep's barca way of play, is not a way to go, firstly pep is only one, and most important "pep way" isnt right way to go in.CL as we can see, he is getting exposed there badly with top squad, surely this cant be the way to go
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serghei
Senior Member
Lucho played a similar style in 2015 with the Barca style of 2009, with Guardiola. 2014-15 is Barca style. Actually the calendar year of 2015 is the last time we had a cohesive attacking play through possession, a resemblance of our style. But Lucho deteriorated a lot in the 3rd season and Valverde is really a coward of a manager, and really not good enough to carry us towards European glory.
Barca style is possession football through positional progression of the ball. Heavy emphasis on passing, and creating multiple chances of scoring through elaborate passing sequences, with one-tows, 3rd man runs, short passing triangles etc. It is not sitting back and playing on the counter based on the individuality of the players. That's Madrid's MO in Europe and something no other side can do as well as them.
Sure, I agree sitting back and playing on the counter suits the CL, a competition where heavy risk is not rewarded at all, but in the bigger picture, changing our style is the stupidest thing we can do. It would make us a wannabe Madrid version with half the success.
Our style and our football legacy, as well as the all time great players we've produced or that played for us, as well as the incredible teams we've had along the years, these are our main draw. It's why all the great players want to play for us (and Madrid).
Play however ugly you have to in order to win is not a Barca motto, and it's not something we should pursue. Park the bus to protect a lead against inferior teams you could always outplay is not our way. It's not in the identity of the club. Barcelona is not a winning above all type of club. It's a club that wants to play it's brand of football and do it well enough as to achieve football glory. And no, it's not just Pep's style that did this. Rijkhaard did it, Lucho did it too in the first part (before the ego got to him). Not to even speak about Cruyff. Many managers have respected our style and won big things with it. Some have created teams that were unique in their combination of aesthetics and results, artistry and effectiveness. This is our goal, and it's our job to pursue it at all costs.
There is place in world football for all type of teams & clubs. Madrid is the ultimate winning club period. Barca is the personification of the beautiful game (and don't get me started that the Barca football is not the most beautiful, since it's built around the mastery of the pass and sheer creativity, which is the foundation of all team sports) combined with legendary teams and results. Bayern are the german colossus, almost always a team to fear. United and Liverpool are the british fight-to-the-end and don't give up symbols (only fitting that the best turnarounds I've seen in CL come from United in 1999 and Liverpool in 2005). Italians are the art of defending and a nightmare to play against some of their best teams (mean defense and some great football minds at the helm and on the bench). Every team has a place in the context of world football. It's very hard for teams to break their tradition, because it's engraved in how they see football, in how their academis teach their kids to play, in how the fans value their game etc.
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Gaudi
Senior Member
No, but start focusing on domination rather then possession. We played great football before Pep as well and now we have players who can play great technical football but in higer tempo...maybe we won't have 70% possession but we can dominate even more.
Against Roma we didn't play to defend we defended because our passing style didn't work and that happened year before and will happen next year as well. I think results tell you the whole story...all teams can lose, but we are becoming big team that can be hammered easily. when we are down we are soooo down, basicalls losing without creating a chance and we always try the same, dominate through possession. My point is possession alone shouldn't be our gold but maybe just a result of dominance...like, for example, game against Milan at Camp Nou.
Some said here how CR scores easy goals, tap ins while Messi has to do a lot for a goal...that is actually truth but the reason is our attack is ALWAYS against 11 in defence. Of course there is no space, by pure math there can not be a lot of space!
We need to evolve, as simple as that. I'm sorry but names are not everything, many here claimed we would lose to L'pool in semis and their midfield is 3 woodchoppers.
Currently tempo and dynamic wins you the CL, I think everyone can see that.
serghei
Senior Member
But having possession is domination if you are good enough to turn it into chances. The team that has the ball more can create more chances if they do their job right. Not creating chances with the ball is a failure of Valverde and the players, not of our style. Our syle doesn't mean just having the ball. It's possession + progression. You aren't actually playing Barca football if you have the ball but don't do anything with it. Or else we could say that United under Van Gaal played Barca football. Far from it.
I disagree about Roma. The intention of Valverde wasn't to score some goals and end the tie. it was to manage the 4-1 lead and conserve the result. This is why we kept a lot (really a lot, like 6-7) of players behind the ball in our attacks, creating no superiority whatsoever. Valverde probably thought staying back and having Messi could see us scoring a goal just by Messi doing some bit of magic, basically speculating an opponent error, like vs Chelsea away. Unfortunatelly, Messi played a poor game as well, and we created nothing until we were already 0-3 down. And that's when poor Valverde thought that maybe we should try a bit harder to score
lol: no shit). We played Barca football, sort of, only after we had nothing to lose anymore since we were already out at that score.I think we didn't even have the ball too much vs Roma. Some stat I've seen on the screen actually showed Roma had more of the ball until the final 6-7 minutes, when they parked the bus after Manolas scored. Imo, that game was anything but Barca style going wrong. It was actually us playing Mourinho defensive football and leaking chances left and right because we're obviously not used to playing it cause it's not our style.
Players don't just magically become ready to play in a certain way just because an idiot instructs them to in a CL quarter.
Basically, I agree with the comment, but what you're attributing to style is actually a managerial flaw from the manager, and a lack of effort from the players. The tactics from the sideline and the lack of intensity from the players are the two causes which lead us to not turning possession into progression, as it needs to happen so we can call it a Barca type juego de posicion.
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Gaudi
Senior Member
That's where we disagree. I mentioned Roma because they were the one attacking and dominating but every time we attacked was against 11 players even though they didn't parked the bus. How is that possible? It is if you play slow!
And this is not something new with Valverde, let's not pretend that, we had simillar problem with many coaches before including Pep's last year. So they are either all stupid (and in the same way stupid) or something is wrong. I didn't thought about that that much until Xavi spoked and basically confirmed that he wants to die with ball in hes feet.
I simply "love" one of our action: ball, defining all odds, moves quickly couple of times, Alba gets alone on the side, gets the ball and...............passes it back! Because there is noone in the middle and it can't be if we want to pass till death. Would it be blasphemy if 3 our players would charge in penalty box and Alba crossing (doesn't need to be high cross!)?
serghei
Senior Member
I repeat, lack of effort is not a style component. We basically thought our players to be lazy and self entitled the moment we started to raise their salaries while their performances dropped. It's basically a way in which the club told them it's ok that you lose 4-0 to PSG, 3-0 to Juve and 3-0 to Roma. We'll give you a raise.
Funny enough we sent Alves away, who was one of the Barca players who actually kept his motivation higher than most, and who played more intense than most.
Fans are just as much to blame as well. Never seen Messi to be as pampered as here. Guy could run 3km per game, walk all game, and still people would defend him because of his incredible ability. Ability without 100% focus and desire is a footnote in professional sports once you reach a certain level. Fans and board should be more critical towards the team, because the reason they lose in CL in the last year is because the other team wants to win more. It has nothing to do with style. It's as primal as the players not putting in hard effort as much as the opponent they face. A player from Juve or even Roma who plays at 95% of what he can do is better than a Barca player who gives 60% of his ability on one night.
We cultivate complacency by not being alert and firm enough to spot the issues and correct them before they get unfixable (then you have to sell the player). Madrid do too, but they are more ruthless so they will just sell your ass if you slack off too much, after they warn you that you're not up to par anymore. They can also replace players more easily because they are run more like any normal big club, don't have a clear philosophy that new players need to spend time learning and adapting to. A player can move from Bayern to Madrid and adapt right away for example. It's only the language that's very different probably. Rest is around the same.
At Barcelona, the player is very much left to motivate himself, pretty much since Pep got tired and exhausted from doing it for 3 years (takes a lot to basically be close to the team and motivate them before every match, you're eventually going to get tired and leave more down to the players individually). And it's just a flawed way of dealing with superstars, especially if they feel that you're not cutthroat and you won't sanction them when they fuck up big time. Players need leading managers that will ring the alarm bells when the conditions for success aren't there anymore. Something like, hold on boys... this is not right. We're Barcelona, we can't just show up like that and get trashed. Who doesn't fix his issues and keeps slacking off, should get sold.
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Gaudi
Senior Member
Maybe, maybe it is mental...but somehow I think they do want to win CL. We won 2 titles this year, by all means it is a very good year, i think most here feel bad because we don't look even close in wining CL and we lose every year in same manner.
If we get Griezmann with Dembele and Coutinho and Iniesta gone we have almost completely different team than our golden generation, hunger shouldn't be a problem then....and yet, I'm willing to bet we'll have simillar season.
serghei
Senior Member
Sure. I do want to do many things as well, but I still end up not doing some. For some I motivated myself to do it. For example, I wanted so hard to play the piano, that I did it in 1 year and now play some great songs really well. I also wanted to work out and have muscles, but after 3-4 sessions I dropped out. It means I didn't want it hard enough as to stop my impulses of dropping out. But maybe if more people told me 'dude, work out some more, you look bad' (I don't look bad, but you get the point). Maybe it would just struck my ego hard enough to make me do it. And overcome by tendency to be complacent and remain in the same state.
The same with Messi for example. He has a weakness of character. He knows it's important to work harder, wants to, but doesn't have the drive to do it. Not on his own anyway. But with help, players can be motivated to overcome their negative impulses. It's basically how you get players to give more in big games. There's a lot of prepping that goes into these games. Or should be at least, so the player is stimulated and understands that this is not just another game, that this is where you are ready to work hard and suffer more. Not sure our players are prepped that way, that they understand and are mentally ready to face more pressure than usual.
Problem is you don't need your average manager to do those things. You need a leader. Pep was that. Seems like Zidane is too.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
But having possession is domination if you are good enough to turn it into chances. The team that has the ball more can create more chances if they do their job right. Not creating chances with the ball is a failure of Valverde and the players, not of our style. Our syle doesn't mean just having the ball. It's possession + progression. You aren't actually playing Barca football if you have the ball but don't do anything with it. Or else we could say that United under Van Gaal played Barca football. Far from it.
I disagree about Roma. The intention of Valverde wasn't to score some goals and end the tie. it was to manage the 4-1 lead and conserve the result. This is why we kept a lot (really a lot, like 6-7) of players behind the ball in our attacks, creating no superiority whatsoever. Valverde probably thought staying back and having Messi could see us scoring a goal just by Messi doing some bit of magic, basically speculating an opponent error, like vs Chelsea away. Unfortunatelly, Messi played a poor game as well, and we created nothing until we were already 0-3 down. And that's when poor Valverde thought that maybe we should try a bit harder to score
I think we didn't even have the ball too much vs Roma. Some stat I've seen on the screen actually showed Roma had more of the ball until the final 6-7 minutes, when they parked the bus after Manolas scored. Imo, that game was anything but Barca style going wrong. It was actually us playing Mourinho defensive football and leaking chances left and right because we're obviously not used to playing it cause it's not our style.
Players don't just magically become ready to play in a certain way just because an idiot instructs them to in a CL quarter.
Serghei, you talk all the time about going back to Pep's style.
Now, seriously, do you ever think about the part about people, animals, football teams evolving all the time?
I am talking about the opponents learning how to play against Barca.
Look, before Pep, Barca and some other teams played a possession football, but "a normal" possession football.
Then Pep came and exploited the opponents through triangles and TikiTaka in the opponent's half.
But look at this part, as others said: look how teams defended vs Barca in 2009 and 2010 and how they started to play in 2011 and 2012.
In 2009 and 2010, teams defended bad against TikiTaka and didn't know how to park the bus.
For example, 442 or 451 teams:
1. in defense, their 4 men were standing quite wide. If a pitch is wide 60 meters, each of them was covering 15 meters.
Because that is how teams defended PRE-PEP against normal teams.
But then, since Pep attacked through the middle, we had tons of space between:
a) two CBs who weren't that close one to another
b) between a CB and a fullback, since a fullback played close to a touchline to prevent wing attacks (which we don't use THAT much)
So, there was a LOOOOOT of space through the middle and tons of space for tikitaka, triangles and goals through the middle
2. the 2nd thing is, one thing which Pep's Barca needed is: a space between defensive and midfield line.
And prior to Pep, there was tons of space between those two lines.
So, the basics:
1. their 4 defenders were standing quite wide and there was a lot of free space between 4 defenders in a defensive line
2. and, the 2nd line, a midfield line, was missing. Opponent's midfield line was standing too high and Xavi-Iniesta had tons of space to operate and orchestrate between their defense and midfield and create deadly chances for Messi and company
What happened later?
1. Mou and other guys figured some things out, and teams stopped playing wide in defense.
Fullbacks stopped hogging the touchline and 4 defenders started to play closer to a center, where all our actions are created.
And two CBs started to play closer to one another.
2. also, their midfield line started to play deeper and closer to their defensive line.
So, we lost a tons of free space between defense and midfield where Xavi and Iniesta operated without too much pressure.
And then, fans like you, repeat all the time: it is not about opponents, it is about US.
WE stopped playing well, run, play triangles etc.
Think about it: maybe we stopped doing that because there is no room anymore for it.
Ok, our current midfielders suck, but still.
My opinion is that even prime Xavi-Iniesta would have problems in 2018.
They wouldn't suck, but they wouldn't be nowhere near as effective as in 2009' because teams play differently against us nowadays.
So, if you want to replicate Pep's era, you CAN'T replicate 2009'.
Teams will never be THAT naive ever again.
You can only replicate 2012', where teams started to figure us out.
Now look at some videos from early Pep's years and look how crappy opponents defended against us.
Barca:Man Utd from 2009:
Look how wide is Man Utd's defense positioned (distance between 4 defenders).
Also, look at tons of space between their defensive line and midfield line.
Xavi and Iniesta could have done whatever they wanted with that much free space.
Man Utd had only 4 players the box, lol.
Teams against us nowadays have 8-9-10 players around the box in the same area.
Does that look like a bus/defending/2-3 lines of parked buses in tight spaces around the box, like Atletico, Juve and other teams are doing lately against us?
So, in short, no matter what you do, the opponents will never play as dumb or as naive, or leave tons of free space between defense and midfield like in early Pep's years.
That ship has sailed like 7-8 years ago and it will never come back.
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