Quique Setien

[KingLeo10]

Yea, fair enough. If you believe 2) is the case, instead of 1), nothing I can do. Makes sense.

I believe it's 1).

I don't believe it's fully 2 or 1. I was very optimistic with Setien that it was 1 but there has been no signs of life from management change. Maybe Setien is just another EV but I would have thought a self-proclaimed attacking minded, possession manager would show that 1 is the problem and not 2. But the more time passes, it appears 2 is as much of an issue, if not the bigger issue IMO

 

[serghei]

I thought you believed in the eye test and not a reductionist approach. Who do you think shows more individual initiative? Arthur or FDJ?

I do, I was just using that to show you that relying on stats can be deceiving.

I think FDJ will be the better player in this setup that we are using now. Which is centered more than ever on individual initiative at the expense of collective play where everyone is doing his job.

Both Arthur and De Jong are playing well under their potential in my opinion. Arthur even more so.

I don't believe it's fully 2 or 1. I was very optimistic with Setien that it was 1 but there has been no signs of life from management change. Maybe Setien is just another EV but I would have thought a self-proclaimed attacking minded, possession manager would show that 1 is the problem and not 2. But the more time passes, it appears 2 is as much of an issue, if not the bigger issue IMO

But Setien doesn't have the balls to bench the veterans. And the veterans just can't change at this point. You will never find out wether it's 1) or 2) until we have changed the cycle. We are far from changing the cycle.

Based on the eye-test (good wording), I'm in the 1) camp no doubt.

 

[Richard.H]

Bilbao defense has been very solid since the restart. I’m expecting another game like the Sevilla one where they crowd Messi

 

[snowy]

Arthur has impeccable technique, balance and low-G centre + ball retention skills. He's not the fastest or a top Iniesta-like dribbler but he can do 1-touch passes, through-balls, long shots perfectly which leaves me puzzled why he doesn't do it more. If he were to play more vertically and aggressive (like he can clearly do) then all would be good. Too often though, he's just been playing wayyyyyy too conservative and lax vs his abilities.

Setien should just give all players a minimum quota shots to be attempted at goal per 90 min lol

Griezmann's case is even weirder. He was talking a big game when he talked about the round CR7 - Neo breakfast table but he's been playing super coy Little Lord of Fauntleroy haha

Yes under a different system, they could do better but look at players like Neymar, Sancho, Zaha, Havertz, Ziyech, etc. No matter what the system, they've got this inner-fire to push it...

Suarez, his mind is as sharp as ever but his body just can't follow suit so he's not even 20% of what he used to be.

As for Leo, to wish him out is just showing a lack of imagination. Surround him with quick, gutsy, forward-minded players and see the goals abound.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

This thing, were some players don't run and walk while other covers for them is just badly outdated. It's like the fax machine of football . It just doesn't work like that.

Good point. We can have Messi walking because offensively there's no one as good as him BUT we can't have Suarez and Messi walking. That's too much. Not to mention we have turtles like Raki and Busi covering for them. Totally messed up situation.

 

[Barcilliant]

This is a manager's thread but people are talking about the players.
Look, EVERYTHING is wrong at the club. The board, the senior players, the youngsters, the managers, the academy... everything.

Even if Font comes in with Xavi there are no guarantees of success. It will take at least two or three seasons of rebuilding.
I've said it before the club is stuck in the past. It needs to move forward.
To play Cruyff, Pep possession like football you need the right ingredients. Those ingredients are best taken from La Masia. And if the ingredients taken from the academy are not good enough the dish will not be tasty. Trying to take ingredients from outside and create the Cruyff, Pep possession football is stupid. If we have the right players from the academy we can play sexy football. If not adopt a more practical approach and create a team that wins trophies and competes ferociously in Cl.
We have become a joke in the cl. The cl is the litmus test for a big club. Without the cl domestic domination has no real credibility.
Either get in a big name manager with balls and presence or someone like Nuno Santo who is doing a great job at Wolves.
I actually think we can get Klopp if a new board comes and the seniors are packed off. Klopp doesn't like the weather in England and I think he will look for a new challenge after the league is won for Liverpool.

 

[Barcilliant]

I'm dead against Xavi being manager. He's not the right fit and we don't have a generation of players like Pep had. Even Lucho had MSN.
Xavi is too much of an idealist too. If people think Setien ball is bad wait till Xavi comes.

 

[Porque]

Arthur has impeccable technique, balance and low-G centre + ball retention skills. He's not the fastest or a top Iniesta-like dribbler but he can do 1-touch passes, through-balls, long shots perfectly which leaves me puzzled why he doesn't do it more. If he were to play more vertically and aggressive (like he can clearly do) then all would be good. Too often though, he's just been playing wayyyyyy too conservative and lax vs his abilities.

Could be a mental block. The whole team has been molded into this mentality of "don't risk and pass to Messi".

Even Setien style of tactical implementation has shifted to that.

I can imagine being part of Barcelona training and all the players "Messi, Messi, Messi" this, "Messi" that. "Pass to Messi". Then Messi comes deep to collect a pass. Imagine ignoring him.

Later it's the training match and an actual match. You try something different. Suarez shouts your head off when it goes wrong. Someone says "Why didn't you pass to Messi". Next action Messi comes deep asking for the ball. Your damn white ass better pass to Messi boy.

You spot someone in a better position but less club status like Griezmann or Dembele. But still you pass to Messi and let him choose the action- even if the line breaking pass is now gone, Messi can create something while you a free from blame of a failed action.

I am not blaming Messi here for this. He is quite simply the best in the world. Just suggesting how a mental block of not risking and giving to Messi can/has been developed at this club.

 

[Riordon]

I hope Messi will leave summer 2021. Then a new project can start and we can play with a true 9, true wingers, a midfield who is supposed to create, etc etc. For the last 3 years Messi has forced every coach to play this asymmetrical 442; our structure on the pitch is our biggest issue. And no matter which coach will arrive will play like that. Messi is a tactical nightmare.

Grateful for everything he has done for us but slowly its time to move on so we can start a new project. I can't stand this 442 and football until 2022-2023 man.

 

[LeeRomeno]

In all honesty, Barcelona is damn difficult team to walk into. Who are the last signings to actually make a difference? Rakitic? Umtiti? Lenglet to some degree as well. Not sure if it is the system or pressure or amigos, probably all combined. Pressure will always be there, its a big club. We probably will not change the system as well, which makes La Masia graduates always more likely to succeed than outsiders. Only thing that will most probably make it easier for outside signings to fit is getting rid of amigos.

 

[JamDav1982]

Could be a mental block. The whole team has been molded into this mentality of "don't risk and pass to Messi".

Even Setien style of tactical implementation has shifted to that.

I can imagine being part of Barcelona training and all the players "Messi, Messi, Messi" this, "Messi" that. "Pass to Messi". Then Messi comes deep to collect a pass. Imagine ignoring him.

Later it's the training match and an actual match. You try something different. Suarez shouts your head off when it goes wrong. Someone says "Why didn't you pass to Messi". Next action Messi comes deep asking for the ball. Your damn white ass better pass to Messi boy.

You spot someone in a better position but less club status like Griezmann or Dembele. But still you pass to Messi and let him choose the action- even if the line breaking pass is now gone, Messi can create something while you a free from blame of a failed action.

I am not blaming Messi here for this. He is quite simply the best in the world. Just suggesting how a mental block of not risking and giving to Messi can/has been developed at this club.

Messi is also to blame as well for the way the team plays.

He rarely busts a gut to move off ball when team break or help provide options the way other top players do on the break. He is much more interested in slowing game down to his pace and getting on ball with game on front of him too much.

Only time seems really interested in trying to break is when Barca are ahead and he and Suarez hang about up the pitch as a two and other team committ men forward. Happens just about every time Barca go ahead those two almost completely stop defending and hang high up pitch waiting for ball when other team have to commit.

It comes across as Suarez stat padding to try and keep him in team to be honest.

When Barca are in possession Messi doesnt help when he drops that deep as he restricts option in final third as he is no longer there and he doesnt play like a play maker who helps dictate the play. He plays it like a second striker trying to force game open.

The way Messi doesnt defend, doesnt hold position and drops back too often can have huge impacts on way Barca are as a unit.

The flip side he is the best ever on the ball and get to see his moments of genius but Messi is contributing to the Messidepencia as much if not more than anyone due to way he plays.

It is a damn near impossible task to get that team to play with variety, pace, pressing when Messi is there and plays way he does. Another reason as lot of top managers would not touch the job.

Old core just makes it all worse.

 

[serghei]

Messi is also to blame as well for the way the team plays.

He rarely busts a gut to move off ball when team break or help provide options the way other top players do on the break. He is much more interested in slowing game down to his pace and getting on ball with game on front of him too much.

Only time seems really interested in trying to break is when Barca are ahead and he and Suarez hang about up the pitch as a two and other team committ men forward. Happens just about every time Barca go ahead those two almost completely stop defending and hang high up pitch waiting for ball when other team have to commit.

It comes across as Suarez stat padding to try and keep him in team to be honest.

When Barca are in possession Messi doesnt help when he drops that deep as he restricts option in final third as he is no longer there and he doesnt play like a play maker who helps dictate the play. He plays it like a second striker trying to force game open.

The way Messi doesnt defend, doesnt hold position and drops back too often can have huge impacts on way Barca are as a unit.

The flip side he is the best ever on the ball and get to see his moments of genius but Messi is contributing to the Messidepencia as much if not more than anyone due to way he plays.

It is a damn near impossible task to get that team to play with variety, pace, pressing when Messi is there and plays way he does. Another reason as lot of top managers would not touch the job.

Old core just makes it all worse.

Well said. Messidependencia is basically the way Barcelona alters nearly every facet of the game to benefit Messi, at the expense of most players around him. As long as this tactic brings us titles, nobody has any right to complain. But when it starts to become useless and problematic, then we have to question the effectiveness of this approach at this stage in Messi's career.

Next season will be key to see if putting everything through Messi and giving him a free role can still be a winning combination. If not, then Messi has to either adapt to a more normal role, or he needs to be let go. Asking every signing to alter their game around Messi at this stage is not very smart unless it brings us some more La Ligas, that would be worth it for delaying a true rebuilding of this team. CL is done for a few years, this approach has already been proven useless in Europe for quite some time, so I don't have any hope in this area anymore. We're way too slow and mellow for a CL push.

 

[George_Costanza]

Could be a mental block. The whole team has been molded into this mentality of "don't risk and pass to Messi".

Even Setien style of tactical implementation has shifted to that.

I can imagine being part of Barcelona training and all the players "Messi, Messi, Messi" this, "Messi" that. "Pass to Messi". Then Messi comes deep to collect a pass. Imagine ignoring him.

Later it's the training match and an actual match. You try something different. Suarez shouts your head off when it goes wrong. Someone says "Why didn't you pass to Messi". Next action Messi comes deep asking for the ball. Your damn white ass better pass to Messi boy.

You spot someone in a better position but less club status like Griezmann or Dembele. But still you pass to Messi and let him choose the action- even if the line breaking pass is now gone, Messi can create something while you a free from blame of a failed action.

I am not blaming Messi here for this. He is quite simply the best in the world. Just suggesting how a mental block of not risking and giving to Messi can/has been developed at this club.

With a good coach, Messi played well and had a good synergy with the whole team. Think of Guardiola and Sabella.

The way I see it, Messi has to move to a midfield of 3-5*-2 or 4-3-1*-2 and play as a trequartista which has zero contribution in defence. The Maradona role.

 

[te amo barca]

We need to start phasing Messi out. Let him play 60% of games in a season. I don?t think another type of football is possible with Messi playing like he does.

 

[clemente]

He's just not that good, sure if we give him perfect players for his system we would do better, but his ceiling isn't that high, he showed that he isn't that high level of a manager against Sevilla with his lineup, subs, adjustments, he got everything wrong. Get someone like Gallardo, who has a high ceiling at least.