Quique Setien

[KingLeo10]

By 2022-23 Messi should be moving to a last fat contract outside of Europe. Arabia, USA, where he wants. People fantasize about Messi playing until 40, but the only players who get near that age are fitness freaks and consummate professionals. Messi is far from being that.

You should worry more about players supposedly in their prime like Arthur being consummate professionals right now than Messi at 2022-2023.

Your vendetta against Messi is incredibly irritating. He's not in the same category as a Pique, Busquets (who are "legends" BECAUSE they played for a strong Barcelona, not the ones making Barcelona that way like a Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Alves) or even a Suarez.

Can't keep making excuses for players you like while shitting on players who've done 1000x more for Barcelona and have a vastly better skillset in other areas for similar limitations (physical conditioning, tactical inflexibility).

 

[khaled_a_d]

Messi will most likely be a starter here in 2022/2023 since world cup takes place midway during the season.
He will renew till 2022 with option for another year. I think it is obvious.

 

[serghei]

You should worry more about players supposedly in their prime like Arthur being consummate professionals right now than Messi at 2022-2023.

Your vendetta against Messi is incredibly irritating. He's not in the same category as a Pique, Busquets (who are "legends" BECAUSE they played for a strong Barcelona, not the ones making Barcelona that way like a Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Alves) or even a Suarez.

Can't keep making excuses for players you like while shitting on players who've done 1000x more for Barcelona and have a vastly better skillset in other areas for similar limitations (physical conditioning, tactical inflexibility).

And how exactly am I shitting on Messi? By saying him at 35 should be moved on? Please... Xavi, Iniesta, they were moved on as well. Alves, the same. It's the natural course of the team.

And you bring up Messi's past. What does it have to do with what is happening now?

 

[xXKonan]

All I know is we can no longer have the likes of Messi-Suarez together in the Front line while having the likes of Busi, Rakitic trying to cover for them.

This isn't sustainable, you have two guys who don't move around much or don't have the work rate but you're also trying to force Busi and Rakitic who don't have the legs to cover that much ground anymore to cover for them. Messi is Messi but even he is starting to annoy the shit out of me with his body language and his insistence in forcing to give balls to Suarez and ignoring other options at times.

Honestly? I'm not sure if we will ever get to figure out how good some certain players we have as we are forcing them to do water carrying work for the aging legs. It's alarming how guys like De Jong are being used for that role when he can be so much better than what he has shown.

 

[serghei]

All I know is we can no longer have the likes of Messi-Suarez together in the Front line while having the likes of Busi, Rakitic trying to cover for them.

This isn't sustainable, you have two guys who don't move around much or don't have the work rate but you're also trying to force Busi and Rakitic who don't have the legs to cover that much ground anymore to cover for them. Messi is Messi but even he is starting to annoy the shit out of me with his body language and his insistence in forcing to give balls to Suarez and ignoring other options at times.

Honestly? I'm not sure if we will ever get to figure out how good some certain players we have as we are forcing them to do water carrying work for the aging legs. It's alarming how guys like De Jong are being used for that role when he can be so much better than what he has shown.

This thing, were some players don't run and walk while other covers for them is just badly outdated. It's like the fax machine of football . It just doesn't work like that.

 

[KingLeo10]

And how exactly am I shitting on Messi? By saying him at 35 should be moved on? Please... Xavi, Iniesta, they were moved on as well. Alves, the same. It's the natural course of the team.

And you bring up Messi's past. What does it have to do with what is happening now?

Suggesting he should be moved on from is one thing. Suggesting he should have a diminished role is also another thing. "Last big fat contract outside of Europe" is another. At 35, he will still be among the top 10 players in the world. You can quote me on this. Maybe it won't be in our best interests to have him spearhead the team but the overt aggression you have towards Messi is just baffling. He's the first player you go to bash when we don't win.

What about the young crop? You conveniently ignored my comparison to Arthur who right now suffers from similar limitations as Messi and on top of that, has the professionalism of a retired South American. We got him a possession friendly manager and he's actually regressed dramatically compared to what he showed v Spurs last season in CL. There are other issues that aren't conducive to his development but if he was that talent with that determination, surely he can improve individually (press harder in defense, make more attacking runs with the ball, develop his passing range etc). Right now, he has less hunger than Messi at 32-33. You can't keep peddling excuses for a certain batch while turning around and shitting on players with an actual contribution to the Barca legacy (this is where past matters).

 

[xXKonan]

Yeah, we are likely screwed in the short term here.

I mean Arthur isn't perfect but the clowns want to trade him for another 30-year-old player in Pjanic, a guy who would be tasked to cover for even older players.

 

[serghei]

Suggesting he should be moved on from is one thing. Suggesting he should have a diminished role is also another thing. "Last big fat contract outside of Europe" is another. At 35, he will still be among the top 10 players in the world. You can quote me on this. Maybe it won't be in our best interests to have him spearhead the team but the overt aggression you have towards Messi is just baffling. He's the first player you go to bash when we don't win.

So, basically, you were bothered by the wording of it?

What about the young crop? You conveniently ignored my comparison to Arthur who right now suffers from similar limitations as Messi and on top of that, has the professionalism of a retired South American. We got him a possession friendly manager and he's actually regressed dramatically compared to what he showed v Spurs last season in CL. There are other issues that aren't conducive to his development but if he was that talent with that determination, surely he can improve individually (press harder, make more attacking runs with the ball, develop his passing range etc). Right now, he has less hunger than Messi at 32-33. You can't keep peddling excuses for a certain batch while turning around and shitting on players with an actual contribution to the Barca legacy (this is where past matters).

The young crop are caught in a team ran by veterans, with a spineless manager and a dead board, in which the old guard get preferential treatment and every young leg out there is used to run a lot and compensate for veterans walking and standing around.

Sorry, but that's how things are. Like it or not, I want the veterans out. They have too much power and influence and use that all the time for their benefit.

 

[KingLeo10]

Calm down Kingleo10 damn.

I'm try to be fair about Messi. I'm not deluded thinking he is anywhere near his prime right now. Or that he should have unlimited influence.

But IMO, you don't let a talent like that just walk away unless you're absolutely sure he's poisoning the team on or off the pitch (shouting at young players, interfering with transfers, demanding full minutes). Especially when he's the second most productive player in Europe RIGHT NOW after Lewandowski.

My patient with the young crop is running thin. Dembele is always injured and Arthur has shown no great hunger or desire to improve. Same with Semedo who's been stagnant. The only youngster I'm happy with is FdJ.

 

[KingLeo10]

The young crop are caught in a team ran by veterans, with a spineless manager and a dead board, in which the old guard get preferential treatment and every young leg out there is used to run a lot and compensate for veterans walking and standing around.

I would buy that if Arthur was hustling in defense. If he was making attacking runs which are ignored by the veterans.

If Semedo showed any attacking inclination whatsoever.

What's going is that 2 things are true. The veterans (Pique, Busquets, Alba; Suarez too but less so) are clearly a problem (I would still try to salvage Messi to a reasonable level until it beyond salvageable) and most of the young crop has flattered to deceive. Seriously, Dembele, Arthur, and Semedo have shown 0 ROI.

I don't buy that we need to have a strong team for the youngsters to flourish. They are the ones who should be helping make it strong. It's a synergy between individual quality and good management.

 

[serghei]

I would buy that if Arthur was hustling in defense. If he was making attacking runs which are ignored by the veterans.

If Semedo showed any attacking inclination whatsoever.

What's going is that 2 things are true. The veterans (Pique, Busquets, Alba; Suarez too but less so) are clearly a problem (I would still try to salvage Messi to a reasonable level until it beyond salvageable) and most of the young crop has flattered to deceive. Seriously, Dembele, Arthur, and Semedo have shown 0 ROI.

I don't buy that we need to have a strong team for the youngsters to flourish. They are the ones who should be helping make it strong. It's a synergy between individual quality and good management.

So, you think 2 things are true, but you don't consider for a second that A may be impacting B to a great degree? You can at least be suspicious that EVERY signing we make turns bad. Including De Jong who was better at Ajax in the Champions League than at Barcelona.

 

[KingLeo10]

So, you think 2 things are true, but you don't consider for a second that A may be impacting B to a great degree?

2 things being true implies the following:

1) Veterans being slow impacts the development of youngsters.

2) Youngsters being of questionable quality exaggerates the decline of veterans.

If you believe in logic, this is the interpretation. "To a great degree" is your personal assessment of it. Not everyone shares that.

 

[serghei]

How many assists does De Jong have while playing CM-AM all this time this season? Does he even have more than Arthur while playing many more minutes?

 

[KingLeo10]

How many assists does De Jong have while playing CM-AM all this time this season? Does he even have more than Arthur while playing many more minutes?

I thought you believed in the eye test and not a reductionist approach. Who do you think shows more individual initiative? Arthur or FDJ?

 

[serghei]

2 things being true implies the following:

1) Veterans being slow impacts the development of youngsters.

2) Youngsters being of questionable quality exaggerates the decline of veterans.

If you believe in logic, this is the interpretation. "To a great degree" is your personal assessment of it. Not everyone shares that.

Yea, fair enough. If you believe 2) is the case, instead of 1), nothing I can do. Makes sense.

I believe it's 1).