Quique Setien

[khaled_a_d]

I do not believe skill and talent and working hard is the same thing.

I never said they are the same, I quoted you about "individual quality"
It is a mix between both skill/talent and physical abilities/hard working.
If a player lack one of those, and needs his teammates to compensate for it. He isn't an individual quality. He is a player who is good for certain situation, who can be good enough to win league by punishing lesser teams.

Also there is mental toughness aspect that plays a part of the equation.

Such is our case. A team lacking individual quality can never beat Liverpool 3-0, or trash Madrid 5-1, or win titles.

The team that have individual quality, can't lose 0-4 against PSG, 0-3 against Juve, 0-3 against Roma, 0-4 against Liverpool and 2-8 against Bayern with 3 different coaches. Even if all of those coaches are awful, it speaks a lot about your players and their quality.

When we win, we simply were able to play with our strength in those games with teams that lacked the ability to punish us for our limitations, in which we have abundance of them.

Back to the point, the veterans are old. And again old teams can't have high level of intensity in either games or even training. You have to alter the team to compensate for this limitations.

I honestly fail to remember a team that is "that old" that was playing with intensity. I can think of few players like Alves, Milner or Nedved but an old team? nah.

I agree our veterans are the problems, and that is why I want at least 3-4 of our 7 30+ players out of the squad this summer, especially with players like Roberto/Griezmann/Coutinho being 28+ of age. We need others to be benched too. We need to add intensity and athletic ability.
I don't think training is the reason, but rather our age. Could obviously blame the coach for allowing the squad to be that old, but I always said I think that the board imposed its well on the coach. Bartou said in 2014 that players are still at their best at the age of 31, he probably thought our squad was fine starting this year.

Lack of speed destroyed us vs Bayern, they had free reign behind our defense and they didn't respect our offense either. That is why if it is up to me I would prioritize an athletic attacker and athletic CB for this team.

 

[serghei]

Valverde had low authority and didn't want conflicts in the team. Was just the wrong profile to rock the boat. Didn't have it in him. And the board didn't support him at all. He wasn't a bad manager, but he was a poor solution for what we needed at that time.

We needed someone like Koeman seems to be. Although it's early.

 

[serghei]

I never said they are the same, I quoted you about "individual quality"
It is a mix between both skill/talent and physical abilities/hard working.
If a player lack one of those, and needs his teammates to compensate for it. He isn't an individual quality. He is a player who is good for certain situation, who can be good enough to win league by punishing lesser teams.

Also there is mental toughness aspect that plays a part of the equation.



The team that have individual quality, can't lose 0-4 against PSG, 0-3 against Juve, 0-3 against Roma, 0-4 against Liverpool and 2-8 against Bayern with 3 different coaches. Even if all of those coaches are awful, it speaks a lot about your players and their quality.

When we win, we simply were able to play with our strength in those games with teams that lacked the ability to punish us for our limitations, in which we have abundance of them.

Back to the point, the veterans are old. And again old teams can't have high level of intensity in either games or even training. You have to alter the team to compensate for this limitations.

I honestly fail to remember a team that is "that old" that was playing with intensity. I can think of few players like Alves, Milner or Nedved but an old team? nah.

I agree our veterans are the problems, and that is why I want at least 3-4 of our 7 30+ players out of the squad this summer, especially with players like Roberto/Griezmann/Coutinho being 28+ of age. We need others to be benched too. We need to add intensity and athletic ability.
I don't think training is the reason, but rather our age. Could obviously blame the coach for allowing the squad to be that old, but I always said I think that the board imposed its well on the coach. Bartou said in 2014 that players are still at their best at the age of 31, he probably thought our squad was fine starting this year.

Lack of speed destroyed us vs Bayern, they had free reign behind our defense and they didn't respect our offense either. That is why if it is up to me I would prioritize an athletic attacker and athletic CB for this team.

Yea, fair enough, if you use individual quality in a broader way, as in the whole conduct of a player in his profession. If you treat the term as such, I have no problem. I usually use it in more of a technique and skill field. With hard work and fitness being more related to human aspects, irrespective of football, almost aspects of life. Such as mentality, personality, ambition, ethic etc.

Also, it goes both ways, Khaled. Players who don't have individual quality, also can't win vs PSG 6-1, or vs Liverpool 3-0. Or be 2-3 games away from a treble, knowing that they don't train very well. It's certainly not black & white regarding this subject.

Yes, we need to add fresh blood. But we needed that for at least 2 years, time in which we pretended things are fine even though they were obviously not right. Valverde himself was a master at pretending things are fine, and avoiding conflicts of any kind, even at the cost of being false, or blatantly lying saying absurd, stupid things. Didn't Valverde try to undermine the importance of fitness, something that fitness is overrated and nobody understands what it is? Didn't he say when speaking about our problems, that's football or something in that line, making it sound as if these things are normal...

Now, I don't believe he was main responsible, I agree it was wrong to paint him as the first responsible. But he was one of the persons in powers that just didn't try to force any change. Just went with the flow and mostly watched as the problems grew and grew. This 8-2 didn't happen in the days or months prior to the game. It happened in the years that passed since PSG beat us 4-0 and we changed nothing of note regarding the way we approach day by day work in this team.

1 year after Valverde left I think I figured him out. He just didn't like conflict and his way of dealing with conflict was to pretend it doesn't exist. There are some managers who feed off conflicts and use conflicts in a productive way to stamp their authority on their team, improving said teams by making tough and bold decisions. Valverde was opposite of that, and this is why his authority in the team was low. He was loved and respected in the way you love people that are easy on you. It was not a productive relationship. And this is why he left the team in a sorrow state.

 

[Vilarrubi]

1 year after Valverde left I think I figured him out. He just didn't like conflict and his way of dealing with conflict was to pretend it doesn't exist. There are some managers who feed off conflicts and use conflicts in a productive way to stamp their authority on their team, improving said teams by making tough and bold decisions. Valverde was opposite of that, and this is why his authority in the team was low. He was loved and respected in the way you love people that are easy on you.

Yep. I feel this type of manager/player relationship works okay when there's not many problems. But as the problems grew and grew over the two seasons he was here you need a strong personality in a manager when there's tough times. Same with Setien.

You don't necessarily want to get on with your manager. Doesn't mean it will translate into good performances on the pitch if you do. Half time against Liverpool or Bayern for example, do you want to go into the dressing room with a manager who you get on well with, doesn't like conflict, gives you and the players freedom, who subconsciously is beneath you because he's a mid table manager/average player..... or a strong mentality manager, who you sometimes fear, who you know is the boss, who is typically a legend manager/player? That's why Koeman appointment is growing on me. Would like to think he'd put Alba in his place if he saw him crying at half time and the rest of those mental midgets.

 

[Messigician]

This bum has damaged Barca beyond repair.

 

[Vilarrubi]

This bum and Valverde has damaged Barca beyond repair.

FTFY.

How can someone damage us beyond repair in 6 months.... It's a collective thing between board/players/managers over the last 5 years. Just obvious trolling from you at this point.

 

[Messigician]

FTFY.

How can someone damage us beyond repair in 6 months.... It's a collective thing between board/players/managers over the last 5 years. Just obvious trolling from you at this point.

Don't talk to me, I'm pretty sure you're a closet Madrid fan.

I wanted this useless bum out of my club since day 1, we as a the laughing stocks of the world even Arsenal fans are taking the piss out of my beloved Barca.

I'm too pissed off to even entertain your nonsense I 8-2 to see us both get upset so I suggest you add me to your block list if you don't like my posts

 

[serghei]

Yep. I feel this type of manager/player relationship works okay when there's not many problems. But as the problems grew and grew over the two seasons he was here you need a strong personality in a manager when there's tough times. Same with Setien.

You don't necessarily want to get on with your manager. Doesn't mean it will translate into good performances on the pitch if you do. Half time against Liverpool or Bayern for example, do you want to go into the dressing room with a manager who you get on well with, doesn't like conflict, gives you and the players freedom, who subconsciously is beneath you because he's a mid table manager/average player..... or a strong mentality manager, who you sometimes fear, who you know is the boss, who is typically a legend manager/player? That's why Koeman appointment is growing on me. Would like to think he'd put Alba in his place if he saw him crying at half time and the rest of those mental midgets.

Yea, this more relaxed and non-conflicting style works best with players who are self-critical, and disciplined. Not with players who will use that to their advantage in ways that weaken the team. The veterans used his character to usurp his authority. They loved him both for his good points, but also for his weaknesses.

As a manager it is important to be firm and decisive with players who go over the line.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Yes, we need to add fresh blood. But we needed that for at least 2 years, time in which we pretended things are fine even though they were obviously not right.

Regarding the fitness thing, which is the main argument, I think it is attributed more to age rather than laziness in training. I don't think our training stuff are bad but they know how old our squad and had to adjust.
Hard to believe that club suddenly decided it is good to be lazy, or coach who rarely had this problem with his team decided it is wise. While we have evidence that older squad are simply unfit and lacks intensity.


______________________________________________

Look, I don't want to get dragged into another EV discussions, we had those zillions of times and I think it is time to move on tbh. But here we go since it is suddenly about him
As I said many times before, EV arrived with an already lethargic squad, with only 2 young athletic studs in Neymar and Umtiti. Instead of club adding players to them we lost both quickly due to transfer and injuries.
Club didn't want to rebuild, they needed those trophies, partially because they are clueless, partially because they needed to please Messi, and part of it was the pressure put by media and call for elections from Bendito. At the end it was their decision, and a wrong one. Bad signings didn't help either.

For me, how I rate EV:
He isn't the coach you want for elite squad. If he was coaching us in 08/09 or 14/15 seasons I don't believe we will get same results at all.
Is he the coach you want in rebuild?: Not 100% sure, I mean for sure he isn't the one to initiate or force it, we can agree with that. He has done decent job with Bilbao but it is different club. I would say it is fair to say he isn't the one for rebuild if you want.
Is he the one good enough for limited squad to squeeze some trophies for it? Absolutely. And he was pretty good at it. And we were that team, and it was the board direction. He has no authority on the board. Only coaches who had that type of authority are coaches who are already legends like SAF or Pep.

But even then, I said when their was renewal talks in Jan 2019, he isn't right guy for 3rd year. We need change and 3rd year will be unfair to him and the club. Squeezing the best of old squad is good for 2 years but not more. This was long before Anfield, and even if we didn't get humiliated there and won treble I would still have believed the same. We needed a "Koeman" in 2019.
That doesn't mean he is without faults, he should have given a firm no against Griezmann signing for example. I mean I can understand that adding someone of Griezmann quality is so tempting for a coach to say no, but he should have done it. That is just an example.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Don't talk to me, I'm pretty sure you're a closet Madrid fan.

I wanted this useless bum out of my club since day 1, we as a the laughing stocks of the world even Arsenal fans are taking the piss out of my beloved Barca.

I'm too pissed off to even entertain your nonsense I 8-2 to see us both get upset so I suggest you add me to your block list if you don't like my posts

how did you work that one out?

You seem highly emotional right now, I’d take a break from the forum if it’s getting to you buddy. Return when you’re in a better frame of mind.

Never said I didn’t like your posts and won’t be adding anyone to any block list. Anyone can say what they want here, don’t have a paddy if someone disagrees.

 

[te amo barca]

This bum has damaged Barca beyond repair.

Finished your daily jerking off ritual to EV yet?

 

[Devils]

He's probably finished now as a manager too.

Damn...the dream job that turned into a nightmare.

Sheesh!

 

[Richard.H]

Finished your daily jerking off ritual to EV yet?

 

[jairzinho]

Xavi was always a high IQ guy. Saw the mess from a mile away and knew this team was done.

Not saying Setien isn't a smart guy but he got caught up in the whole dream job idea.

In the end it didn't work out to good for him.

He got punked pretty bad by the amigos in that Celta game tbh.

Doubt he will ever recover from that.

 

[ItachiXXX]

Lol, we don't lack individual quality. Individual quality from star players is why we kept winning titles with poor fitness levels and poor trainings all these years. What we lack is speed, fitness, professionalism, work rate, intensity. Talent and skill is why we kept winning titles while we were in bad shape, lacking all of those things.

People still don't understand what the problems are. The problem is we kept pampered talented legends for too long and allowed the team to get to a point where they don't run as much as they have to to stand a chance against the teams in Europe.

Even De Jong spelled it out:

"But they were much better than us. I don't think it's too much about talent, I think it's about putting in intensity and hard work and we need to change these things".

Why majority that won UCL are the one that run less ?
Valverde Bilbao are they lazy too ?
Imagine if the overhype team captain material gave Barca a good performance against Roma and Liverpool. People here will not be talking about how many km they run