Quique Setien

Latschenkiefer

Senior Member
Not to mention that Setien played with Griezmann, Rakitic, Frenkie, Roberto, Semedo.

While EV played against Leonesa with:
Gonzales, Cuenca, Chumo, SEMEDO, Denis, Samper, VIDAL, Dembele, Munir, Malcom.
To some extent, with zero starters, since Vidal was the 4th pick and Semedo was the 2nd RB pick.
And it was played on 2 matches, so even if we lost 0:3, we would still win 5:0 at Camp Nou.

Not to mention that Ibiza played a single knockout game at home today where the motivation and bravery is infinitely higher on the weaker team's part.
Not to mention that Valverde knew his team for 1 1/2 years already while Setien is in charge for only two weeks.
Not to mention that we couldn't field Dembele who according to the rating was the best player on the pitch against Leonesa.
Not to mention that we played with Rakitic today.
Not to mention that we saw ugly football for 2 1/2 years with Valverde and already got one decent game in terms of esthetics from Setien.
Not to mention that he has two games and two wins now.

You can play this game on both sides.

Not to mention that you try your hardest to ingnore how bad Valverde really was, maybe because in your eyes he was the closest thing to Rijkaard the club had seen since then. So you put all your hopes in him and had high expectations and maybe made big announcements. And now you can't go back. I think it would drive you crazy to be proven wrong which misleads you to downplay everything the new manager achieves, only for the chance to say in the end: "Ha! I told you so! I knew Valverde was the better manager." I think this is not the right behaviour for a Barca supporter.

I understand that the exaggerations from some of the other posters regarding Setien and Valverde are annoying but we have a new manager now. Try to stay fair and unbiased. Maybe Setien will fail but Rjikaard most likely won't come back. Get over it.
 

Sultan

Nosce te ipsum
It is interesting how Valverde mentioned Basketball. After that quote, I was picturing LeBron James instead of Messi. And the Whole article could be written about LeBron.

I agree most of the things mentioned, if true, don't sit well with me. I also believe Busquets role is exaggerated. The true key figures are Messi and Pique.

Messi, like LeBron, deserves all the Power he has and I sincerely think he wants to WIN. Any Coach that doesn't prepare his team to suit Messi isn't a great Coach. Unlike LeBron though, if it is indeed as it appears, it is his friendship with Suarez, and Suarez's inability to press, produce that spoils his earned Privilege. I'm sure he knows this, and thus tries his best to Carry his weight offensively but He can't do anything about it defensively.

Pique I think is just a FOOL and the real cancer of the team. I don't he even cares about Winning on the pitch anymore. He is already into his retirement phase, politically and financially speaking.
 

gasgas

Senior Member
Not to mention that Ibiza played a single knockout game at home today where the motivation and bravery is infinitely higher on the weaker team's part.
Not to mention that Valverde knew his team for 1 1/2 years already while Setien is in charge for only two weeks.
Not to mention that we couldn't field Dembele who according to the rating was the best player on the pitch against Leonesa.
Not to mention that we played with Rakitic today.
Not to mention that we saw ugly football for 2 1/2 years with Valverde and already got one decent game in terms of esthetics from Setien.
Not to mention that he has two games and two wins now.

You can play this game on both sides.

Not to mention that you try your hardest to ingnore how bad Valverde really was, maybe because in your eyes he was the closest thing to Rijkaard the club had seen since then. So you put all your hopes in him and had high expectations and maybe made big announcements. And now you can't go back. I think it would drive you crazy to be proven wrong which misleads you to downplay everything the new manager achieves, only for the chance to say in the end: "Ha! I told you so! I knew Valverde was the better manager." I think this is not the right behaviour for a Barca supporter.

I understand that the exaggerations from some of the other posters regarding Setien and Valverde are annoying but we have a new manager now. Try to stay fair and unbiased. Maybe Setien will fail but Rjikaard most likely won't come back. Get over it.

He was proven wrong by neymar in the treble season when he scored 40+ goals and ended 3rd on ballon dor and this did not force bbz to back down on his agenda
 

Barcilliant

Senior Member
It is interesting how Valverde mentioned Basketball. After that quote, I was picturing LeBron James instead of Messi. And the Whole article could be written about LeBron.

I agree most of the things mentioned, if true, don't sit well with me. I also believe Busquets role is exaggerated. The true key figures are Messi and Pique.

Messi, like LeBron, deserves all the Power he has and I sincerely think he wants to WIN. Any Coach that doesn't prepare his team to suit Messi isn't a great Coach. Unlike LeBron though, if it is indeed as it appears, it is his friendship with Suarez, and Suarez's inability to press, produce that spoils his earned Privilege. I'm sure he knows this, and thus tries his best to Carry his weight offensively but He can't do anything about it defensively.

Pique I think is just a FOOL and the real cancer of the team. I don't he even cares about Winning on the pitch anymore. He is already into his retirement phase, politically and financially speaking.

Pique is a clown and a fool. Great defender when his head is in it but totally crap when distracted.

I'm not sure about Busquets. He could be a Kaizer Sose type figure 😂
 

Sultan

Nosce te ipsum
Pique is a clown and a fool. Great defender when his head is in it but totally crap when distracted.

I'm not sure about Busquets. He could be a Kaizer Sose type figure ��

Wait a minute.......
 

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Pepsbarca

Member
3-4-3 is impossible in modern day football. With every team now having full backs attacking and wingers, it's really a recipe for disaster.

Even the archaic Italian teams have given up on that concept of 3-4-3.

This shit will NEVER EVER work.

At least you’re willing to give it a try.
 

clemente

New member
At least he admits it was a shit game from us, so we have something to look forward to, he sees the problems and will try to work on them, so much better than "We knew Ibiza was going to be a tough game, the squad did the best they could, I will give them 2 rest days".
 

mc_lovin

Senior Member
I know that I will get replies from [MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] how 433 from Pep's era is not dead or figured out, but let's calm down and analyze some stats from recent years:
1. Pep played 433 in the first 3 seasons
Then he moved to an extra midfielder Cesc in 2011/12. So, he tried to even "level up" his 433.
It is hard to tell:
1) did he try that because 433 was getting figured out?
2) or he just wanted experimenting

2) Tito continued his work, but our 433 was getting weaker than in Pep's era
3) then came Tata and our 433 was even worse than during Pep and Tito
So, we see declining of our 3men midfield over years
4) then Lucho came. For 1 and a half years, 433 started to work again, but in the 2nd part of 2015/16, it started to decline again
In 2016/17, Lucho turned to 343 to get an extra midfielder (Roberto played as a hybrid RB-RCM).
Now, a question again: has he switched to 4 midfielders because he was crazy or something was "wrong" with a 3men midfield in 2017 (either due to the opponents figured us out or due to poor midfielders in our team?)
5. Then EV came and in the beginning he turned to 442 because 3 midfielders were NOT ENOUGH anymore to dominate the opponents.
And basically, we played the best under EV when we played 442 with 4 midfielders.
In the 2nd season, we switched to 433, and results wise, we became weaker than with 442.
This season, we continued with 433 and our results, domination and running was way worse each new Month.

Now, when you look at a bigger picture, isn't it fair to ask a question: is it even POSSIBLE to play a successful 433 in 2020, which will dominate the Europe?
If you think that it is POSSIBLE, then: surely it is not possible with our current OLD rooster where Messi doesn't run, and Suarez, Raki, Vidal, Busi, Pique, Alba are old.

So, you have 2 questions:
1. is it possible to play a successful 433 in 2020? (People will mention Liverpool, Real, City)
2. if yes, then you surely need way more athletic and younger players to do that
And now, a million dollar question:
= since it is hard to dominate and execute 433 in 2020, what to do when your core is old, physically drained and declined and unmotivated?
1) should you try with 433 again even though it failed too many times in recent years with a current rooster
2) or will you try something else (Pep in 2012, Lucho in 2017, EV's 442 in 2018, Setien's 352 in 2020)?

What if:
1. our team is so old and finished that it is very hard to execute majority of formations due to their physical limitations?
2. what if you can't force them to train and run too much, since they are old and dead, and: it is what is, you just have to accept, adjust and get as much as possible from them?

I mean, let's be honest: EV is gone for only 8 days, and an optimism around a new coach has already gone.
And questions like: is our team capable or running and winning anymore=are growing more and more after every single new match.

Imo, it is very, very likely: that our team can't run too much.
That they can't press and move too much.
That we are limited tactically due to those physical limitations.
And since younger players are mostly bad, we can't do anything but to play those amigos.
And then again, with amigos, we are limited tactically, in terms of running, pressing, rotating.

And then you have fans who want:
1. beautiful play
2. 433
3. wins
4. youngsters in a team
5. more intensity in training

Again, the most likely answer is: you can't get it all.
It is what it is. You can choose only 1-2 things and that's it :valverde2:

** I am not saying that we can't play 433 today.
But with these players, you will get a shitty, slow, boring, sterile 433 from EV's days.
Basically:
1. you can get a shitty version of a granny slow 433
2. or you can try something new, which will probably end in an even bigger disaster like Lucho's 343 or Setien's 352/343 :lol:



I dont think our 433 being figured out is the problem :lol: And its not like we try to play identical to Peps Barcelona, new players will have different interpretations of their positions (Frenkie, Arthur are not at all comparable to Xavi, Iniesta or Busquets in style). And in contrast to 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 it doesnt have structural deficiencies (as much). It all comes down to player quality.

In Peps last season we depended on Tello and Alexis in attack for example. And right now we need a 17 years old Fati to step up massively and effectively have no centre forward. But our redeeming quality should be our midfield, because thats the one part of our team where we have worldclass talent. And thats why Valverde was so unbearable with his appraoch to bypass it and play like Bilbao.

We will see soon enough how things evolve, and maybe Setiens extremely asymmetrical 4-3-3 (against Granada) can work out. Especially with a full squad (bar Suarez). Yesterdays setup was an abomination and should be buried though.
 

MTL_Barca

Well-known member
So, I won't be surprised if he'll play 2CBs+1 fullback or 1CB+2 fullbacks all the time.

For example:
1CB+4 fullbacks lineup: Mats - Firpo, Pique, Roberto - Alba, Frenkie, Arthur, Rakitic/Vidal, Semedo - Griezz, Messi
Or:
2CBs+3 fullbacks lineup: Mats - Umtiti/Lenglet, Pique, Roberto - Alba, Frenkie, Arthur, Rakitic/Vidal, Semedo - Griezz/Messi

In 433 we have:
2 CBs
2 fullbacks
3 midfielders
3 attackers (2 of them wingers)
Or:
2 Cbs
4 wingers (LB, RB, LW, RW)
3 midfielders
1 CF

With his 352, he gets:
1 CB (1 CB lost)
4 wingers (Alba, Firpo, Roberto, Semedo)=the same
3 midfielders=the same
2 CFs (an extra attacker earned)

Basically, he is trading 1 CB for 1 attacker and more possession/creative players.

That doesn't really add up because you move the same players in similar roles (Semedo/Alba) from defense to offense when comparing 4-3-3 to 3-5-2 but it's not that clear.

In your example lineup for the 3-5-2 you'd need to take out one defender for an attacker to make it a 4-3-3 because both Alba and Semedo aren't players you'd ever want to have as LW/RW in a 4-3-3. So actually you give up one striker to fit in one extra defender to push the fullbacks up higher, but they are still the same players in similar roles unless you suddenly replace Semedo or Alba with Dembele to make it more offensive.

Just for the 3-5-2 type of formation of course, 3 in the back with 4 CMs is a different story and would fit your comparison more.

We'll really have to see where Setien is going with that 3 in the back. I can see what he's trying to achieve but it'll be difficult to implement and i don't think the squad really has the perfect players for it at the moment.

I think Messi is also a big reason for any change like that. Since he always plays as a 10 anyway (and as a coach you obviously don't want to stop him because of how good he is) it'll be better to have him in the middle on paper as well opposed to him being a fake RW what often just results in a gaping hole on the wing.
 
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JohnN

Senior Member
When we played typical 4-3-3 during buildup under EV, Busquets dropped between the center backs (3 men at the back) while the fullbacks advanced. That caused great distances between our dm and cms, so we had to advance from the wings, through fullbacks who were higher up.
I think he is trying to keep the DM (Busquets) higher up the field to combine with the central midfielders, while maintaining that back 3 during buildup. Alba will still advance to become some kind of mid-winger again but the right back won't as he will drop to RCB and be able to cover defensively for Messi. That's my take on what he is trying to do.
 

Rory

Senior Member

Feel like it's an interesting read but also attributes certain things to club de amigos rather than something that is simple logic. Messi a winger who is 32 who is the best player in the world in attack, struggles with pressing for a whole game and so the board sign a midfielder to compensate - simple logical solution.

Guardiola retires from the club, they let Tito Vilanova who has been his assistant all this time take over - not a crazy decision.

Tata was a mad decision.

Luis Enrique didn't have the cv but had relative success with celta and is a barca fan favourite so again not a crazy appointment.

Valverde at the time was a solid appointment, did well at Bilbao.

Besides it's the board's fault for not signing big name managers who will run the club. We can't blame club de amigos for existing when the board built them a clubhouse gave them the keys and said leave when you want.
 

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