utility73
Senior Member
No wonder Piqué was at his best while Puyol was still around permanently kicking his ass to stay focused
Quique Setien
- Thread starter FC433
- Start date
BBZ8800
Senior Member
About the midfield part, I think that you are making a mistake.
Even though midfield is a key part of creation, it can't work ALONE.
So, a midfield will shine ONLY:
1. if we have good midfielders
2. and if we have good players AROUND a midfield area which will help in getting the ball from the back, build up and actual creation in the attacking 3rd
Now, I will slightly simplify some things and give rating from 1 to 10 (where 10 is the best grade, obviously).
Look at our teams under Rijkaard, Pep, EV and Setien: I will rate 7 (yes, seven players) who are key for build up and possesssion:
My estimation of player's IQ, creation and attacking power (in terms of creativity and en end product in the attacking 3rd in terms of dribbles, passes, assists, key passes, making runs):
Rijkaard 2006:
LB Van Bronckhorst 8/10
CDM Edmilson 7/10
CM Xavi 10/10
CM Deco 10/10
LW Ronaldinho 10/10
CF Etoo 8/10
RW Guily 8/10
Pep 2011:
RB Alves 9/10
CDM Busi 9/10
CM Xavi 10/10
CM Iniesta 10/10
LW Pedro 8/10
CF Messi 10/10
RW Villa 8/10
EV 2019, Anfield:
LB Alba 5/10
CDM Busi 7/10 (aged and declined)
CM Raki 6/10
CM Vidal 7/10
LW Cou 8/10
Suarez 6/10
CF Messi 10/10
Barca 2020:
LB Alba 5/10
CDM Busi 7/10 (aged and declined)
CM Frenkie 7/10
CM Arthur 6/10
LW Griezz 8/10
Suarez 6/10
CF Messi 10/10
Now, I will do the same for defending as a UNIT, for pressing when we don't have the ball:
Rijkaard 2006:
LB Van Bronckhorst 8/10
CDM Edmilson 9/10
CM Xavi 9/10
CM Deco 9/10
LW Ronaldinho 7/10
CF Etoo 10/10
RW Guily 9/10
Pep 2011:
RB Alves 9/10
CDM Busi 9/10
CM Xavi 9/10
CM Iniesta 9/10
LW Pedro 10/10
CF Messi 6/10
RW Villa 8/10
EV 2019, Anfield:
LB Alba 7/10
CDM Busi 5/10 (aged and declined)
CM Raki 5/10
CM Vidal 9/10
LW Cou 4/10
Suarez 6/10
CF Messi 2/10
Barca 2020:
LB Alba 5/10
CDM Busi 5/10
CM Frenkie 7/10
CM Arthur 6/10
LW Griezz 8/10
Suarez 6/10
CF Messi 2/10
Now, let's check the age of these key 7 players in 2006, 2011, 2019 and 2020:
LB Van Bronckhorst 31
CDM Edmilson 30
CM Xavi 26
CM Deco 29
LW Ronaldinho 26
CF Etoo 25
RW Guily 30
Pep 2011:
RB Alves 28
CDM Busi 23
CM Xavi 31
CM Iniesta 27
LW Pedro 24
CF Messi 24
RW Villa 30
EV 2019, Anfield:
LB Alba 30
CDM Busi 31
CM Raki 31
CM Vidal 32
LW Cou 27
Suarez 32
CF Messi 32
Barca spring/summer 2020:
LB Alba 31
CDM Busi 32
CM Frenkie 23
CM Arthur 24
LW Griezz 28
Suarez 33
CF Messi 33
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
Now, numbers and stats, per team:
Creative power (7 players), average:
9,14 Pep 2011
8,71 Rijkaard 2006
7,00 EV 2019
7,00 Setien 2020
Pressing as a unit (7 players):
8,71 Rijkaard 2006
8,57 Pep 2011
5,57 Setien 2020
5,43 EV 2019
Average age of these 7 key players:
26,7 Pep 2011
28,1 Rijkaard 2006
29,1 Setien 2020
30,7 EV 2019
Now, this is simplified, but you'll get the point:
Current team from the last few years is behind Rijkaard's and Pep's era for miles in everything:
1. creative power from 7 players
2. pressing and defending
3. age
4. I could easily add motivation since in Rijkaard's era only Deco had 1 CL title. During Pep, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Valdes, Marquez had 1 title.
Today, Messi has 4 CLs, Busi 3, Pique 3, Raki 1, Suarez 1, Alba 1, Roberto 1, Mats 1.
Not to mention that Messi has 10 La Ligas, Busi/Pique 8, Alba 5, Raki/Suarez 4.
So, I don't think that midfield ALONE can do too much in possession and creation if players around them suck.
And even then, if you look at midfield ALONE, Frenkie and Arthur are miles behind players from Rijkaard's and Pep's era in terms of creation.
Frenkie can run a lot and bring the ball from our half, but is kinda useless in the attacking third.
Arthur can bring the ball back from our half, avoid a pressure and recycle possession, but is also kinda useless in the attacking third.
Rijkaard had an extra midfielder in a LB Gio who was a playmaking fullback like Marcelo and Dani Alves. Plus, he was smart.
Pep had an extra midfielder in a RB Dani Alves, probably the most creative RB ever.
And then, today you have a dumb Jordi Alba on the left who has 1 attacking move, average Roberto on the right or a braindead Semedo (in attacking phase).
In attack: Rijkaard had 3 fast attackers (Ronnie, Etoo, Guily plus young Messi on the bench), who could all run, run behind a defense, dribble and score.
Today we have 33 years old Messi who can't run as much as he used to. Griezmann who is slow and can't dribble at all. Suarez who is old, slow, can't dribble and is ruining like 80% of passes.
And then majority of guys here say: this team can fly, this team is awesome, all we need is a good coach.
Yet, in reality, this team on all parameters is the weakest since 2003 (pre Laporta, pre Rijkaard, pre Ronaldinho).
And when you remove Messi, our current team is probably at a level of Sevilla or Arsenal.
Sorry, I wrote more than you asked/replied for, but I don't believe that anyone can debunk these numbers from above.
No matter how we turn numbers/rate our players, this is a very, very average team, plus it is getting worse and worse each new Month due to age and even bigger physical decline.
Last edited:
George_Costanza
Active member
Gallardo and even Poch should've been hired. Not saying Setien is a bad choice. Definitely an upgrade to EV but I do question his leadership and time will tell if he has it.
I don't think it's a bad start for him, Valverde got humiliated by Real Madrid back to back in Supercup (his first two official games in charge). Also, he should consider tactics/formation according to the players, their strengths, and their weaknesses. Can't implement 3-4-3 if we don't have the players for it.
Seems to me that Setien is setting the structure and philosophy of the team with goal for/against to ensue from that. It is the right idea but dangerous to implement at this stage of the season. If he had the whole summer and a few signings to put rocketfuel into his setup then it would of been better conceived.
Get the team back used to possession, working off the ball and increase of intensity. Let this create more goal scoring chances when the players understand the creation channels. Minimise goals conceded through possession, positioning and closing down quickly.
With someone of the intelligence of Setien it makes absolute sense, but it is the intangibles in the application that could make it break to pieces. A bit like how the genius of Bielsa can lead to absolute chaos.
Get the team back used to possession, working off the ball and increase of intensity. Let this create more goal scoring chances when the players understand the creation channels. Minimise goals conceded through possession, positioning and closing down quickly.
With someone of the intelligence of Setien it makes absolute sense, but it is the intangibles in the application that could make it break to pieces. A bit like how the genius of Bielsa can lead to absolute chaos.
Messi983
Senior Member
It's still very early but what we've seen in those two games is what most Betis fans were complaining about Setien in his last season. Having useless possesion, not creating much chances and on the other side giving away easy chances to the opponents. I've liked Setien during his Las Palmas days and in his first season at Betis when he has actually played a good offensive football scoring a lot of goals (also conceding a lot though) but started to like him less in his second year there after he has started using 3-5-2 (though he at least had players who fit that system there) which main intention was just to keep possession.
Anyway, he's here now and I wish him all the best and will support him to death like I did with previous coaches (I'm in minority but I've always blamed old and unmovitated players more for our struggles than whoever our coach was) but I hope he'll stop this 3-5-2 experiment or it won't end well and people will soon stop seeing him as our "saviour who will bring back the atatcking football" and start hate him. We just don't have the players for 3-5-2 and using Roberto as a RCB is also stupid.
I would also prefer us to sacrifise a bit of possession and concentrate on creating more chances by playing more risky passes in the final third than have 80% possesion and not create anything. I think we'll struggle against teams sitting deep under Setien and wait for some Messi magic but on the positive side we should be better against high pressing opponents.
Based on his past comments about Messi (no, I'm not advocating benching or selling him, lol), Busi (I'm much more in favour for selling him but a time to do this was 2-3 years ago, now it's too late and he doesn't want to leave anyway) and some other players do you really think QS is the man who will do that required cut in the team. We'll see but I doubt.
Anyway, it's not just about having balls to come in and bench certain underperforming "stars". Whichever coach would do this would risk to lose a locker room from the moment he does these "unpopular" moves and could be fired after a few bad results when players will start to doubt he knows what he's doing. If we intend to do this then we should just bring Mourinho who would be in fight with most players in a few months (he loves Raki so he would still start him though
). So it's easier for a new coach to bring his fresh ideas (from a tactical and motivational standpoint), include one or two younger players to bring more energy/motivation and maybe using veteran players less but a coach should still make them feel valuable which means giving them a lot of playing time as long as they are in the team. What we should do is to sell those players and adequatly replace them to make coach's job easier but in the end that's a club's decision. And we can't manage to convince anyone it's time to leave.
And as long as we're winning league titles I don't expect anything dramatical will happen. It took us two trophy-less seasons (one losing a title in last minutes of the last home game against Asspanyol which was followed by a season where we finished 3rd and 18 points behind RM) to decide to sell R10, Deco and Eto'o (though this happened a year later and it was a big mistake from Pep). Don't know what would need to happen now so we would do something similar. We won't sell all members of "club de amigos" but just getting rid off one or two of them would send a good message to the others than none is untouchable.
Anyway, he's here now and I wish him all the best and will support him to death like I did with previous coaches (I'm in minority but I've always blamed old and unmovitated players more for our struggles than whoever our coach was) but I hope he'll stop this 3-5-2 experiment or it won't end well and people will soon stop seeing him as our "saviour who will bring back the atatcking football" and start hate him. We just don't have the players for 3-5-2 and using Roberto as a RCB is also stupid.
I would also prefer us to sacrifise a bit of possession and concentrate on creating more chances by playing more risky passes in the final third than have 80% possesion and not create anything. I think we'll struggle against teams sitting deep under Setien and wait for some Messi magic but on the positive side we should be better against high pressing opponents.
Based on his past comments about Messi (no, I'm not advocating benching or selling him, lol), Busi (I'm much more in favour for selling him but a time to do this was 2-3 years ago, now it's too late and he doesn't want to leave anyway) and some other players do you really think QS is the man who will do that required cut in the team. We'll see but I doubt.
Anyway, it's not just about having balls to come in and bench certain underperforming "stars". Whichever coach would do this would risk to lose a locker room from the moment he does these "unpopular" moves and could be fired after a few bad results when players will start to doubt he knows what he's doing. If we intend to do this then we should just bring Mourinho who would be in fight with most players in a few months (he loves Raki so he would still start him though
). So it's easier for a new coach to bring his fresh ideas (from a tactical and motivational standpoint), include one or two younger players to bring more energy/motivation and maybe using veteran players less but a coach should still make them feel valuable which means giving them a lot of playing time as long as they are in the team. What we should do is to sell those players and adequatly replace them to make coach's job easier but in the end that's a club's decision. And we can't manage to convince anyone it's time to leave. And as long as we're winning league titles I don't expect anything dramatical will happen. It took us two trophy-less seasons (one losing a title in last minutes of the last home game against Asspanyol which was followed by a season where we finished 3rd and 18 points behind RM) to decide to sell R10, Deco and Eto'o (though this happened a year later and it was a big mistake from Pep). Don't know what would need to happen now so we would do something similar. We won't sell all members of "club de amigos" but just getting rid off one or two of them would send a good message to the others than none is untouchable.
Those are just made up numbers, its as objective as me having faith in Frenkie and Arthur. And I am not saying that the midfield can dominate on their own, thats precisely why we badly need a worldclass 9, and even good squad players (+a topclass cb would be nice ;D). But in theory Arthur-Busquets-Frenkie looks damn good, we wont find better players or talents right now. You may argue that its redundant, and maybe you are right, but at worst we need a good system player to complement two of them.
I think what really makes or breaks our next season is the striker we buy (or find). If we fail on that front I would understand your pessimism. But other than that we have the players to compete with anyone.
te amo barca
Blaugrana al vent
lol, BBZ applying those arbitrary bullshit ratings and claiming that "no one can debunk these numbers" . Back to your clown ways I see.
. Back to your clown ways I see.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
lol, BBZ applying those arbitrary bullshit ratings and claiming that "no one can debunk these numbers"
The point is: if you watched with your own eyes Barcas for some time, you can give estimations of players skills.
Now, since BOTH you and me watched Xavi and Rakitic, can we both agree that if Xavi was 10/10 in creation, that Rakitic is let's say 6/10 or 7/10 at best?
If we both watched Busi, can we agree that he was 10/10 player in 2011 and that today he declined to 7/10 today compared to gis former self?
Or if we both watched Dani Alves, and if he was 9/10 or 10/10 in creation, can we agree that Semedo is miles behind him?
Let's say 3/10 or 4/10?
Now, these numbers are subjective but you get the point.
No one sane will say that Rakitic is as creative as Xavi or that Semedo is even close to Alves.
And then, I have done the same with 4 generations of players whom I have watched every week, the same as how you have watched Xavi and Rakitic.
Now, you can disagree with some of my estimations, whether a player xx had creativity 7 or 8, fine.
The point is that a difference in skills of players from 2006 and 2011 compared to today is so huge, that even if I have made several mistakes in estimations, the point still stands: meh defenders, average fullbacks, midfield which is clueless in attack, and meh attack bar Messi.
Add that a team is the oldest ever, the least motivated ever due to too many trophies won, we have zero leaders, La Masia dried etc.
If you have watched Rijkaard's and Pep's era, try to estimate our teams in several different areas and then tell me: how this isn't the weakest team since 2002/03 season?
te amo barca
Blaugrana al vent
I think you're underrating the effect a manager can have on players. Look at Salah. Mediocre winger at Roma, one of the best players in the world for Klopp. Same case with Mane. The guys you are shitting on like Arthur, Semedo, Dembele and so on, they can be and already looked like world beaters in their previous teams. A player can improve massively in just half a year, and a lot of that depends on the manager. Valverde has stalled the development of our players for 2,5 years now; no one has progressed under him. So I am not giving any ratings to our new guys until a new manager who actually FITS Barca has a full season to prove his worth.
Gaudi
Senior Member
behindbrowneyes
Well-known member
Don't read too much into that game. Due to the board's bad planning there are only 3 CBs left in the squad. Araujo was suspended. They loaned out the only one with pace. It was a smart decision to not risk Umtiti on that hard pitch given his history with knee injuries.
LeeRomeno
Active member
It is not only manager, its the system that player with his abilities has to fit and the team surrounding him. Salah was not mediocre in Roma, actually Liverpool made him his most expensive signing at the time, but he was in weaker team with attacking trio, who werent Sane/Firmino. Bale was absolutely fantastic in Spurs, he has really never lived up to the heights in Real. Modric on the other hand was great in both teams. All this shit about Valverde stalling the development of our players is just ridiculous, majority of his squad has always been in age, where there is a question of delaying the deterioration, rather then development. Klopp never had the burden on having aging legendary golden generation and worlds best player in his squad, whos needs he had to cater.
serghei
Senior Member
Saying quality of players is a major problem at Barca has to be one of the most supid claims ever made here. We had our fair share of flops but the quality is high. Actually we have most problems a badly run elite club can have, except lack of individual quality. Individual quality is the main thing that prevented us from turning into Milan or United.
Home of Barca Fans
