Real Madrid (old thread)

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poncirus

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well again, what are "matchday tactics"? setting the team up in the correct formation is very important. it isn't a magical solution and can only follow on from the work done in training, but it's still crucial.

Yes, that's what I mean by "matchday tactics": fine tactical tweaking (formations switching, specific tasks etc.) for particular match.

As you said, it's absolutely necessary, but certainly not the most important thing. And for some reasons (you mentioned one) people are getting obsessive with it. It even gets to point they're overanalyzing some marginal, accidental or clearly technical detail and feel they are doing something very smart, while they're totally missing the point.
 

dalitis8

Banned
[/B]

I agree with most of it, but exactly that part regarding Ferguson does not say anything as Chelsea were shit in both games (they have been shit all season, despite the first 5 games in September). You should instead look at his European record which is NOT impressive at all, rather the opposite. 2 CL titles in 25 years says it all.

Hm, spot on.
 

Beast

The Observer
as hinted at by Jamrock, the problem is semantic.

tactics is such a blanket term that you can't really argue how important it is, because what is it?

setting the team up in a correct way and coaching them to do the right things in the right situations, the things poncirus is (correct in) saying matter most, are part of tactics. in fact they are the fundamentals of tactics.

what he is criticising, and what none of you seem able to grasp, is the obsession with minutiae (formations especially) and emphasis on the tiny tactical adjustments made by coaches in the game. basically everything zonalmarking faps over. that, too, is part of tactics. but it is NOT a crucial part of the game as a whole.

and that's basically the problem. poncirus needs to realise what he is advocating can also be called tactics, and those against poncirus need to not be as obsessive over minutiae.

for example: Fergie, Mourinho and Guardiola are probably the 3 best coaches in the World at the moment (Klopp too, tbf) and are they tactical masterminds? Unai Emery could take them all to school, not to mention the litany of tactical masterminds in Argentina and Italia. but what those three can do is motivate their players like no one else (alright in Pep's case he has the best players but he also has the best team, so that all fits) Mourinho, in particular, is far from a tactical genius but as a man-manager he's astounding. he's the Darth Vader to Fergie's Emperor. or somethin'. Pep CONSTANTLY praises the human qualities of his players. and do I need to go into Fergie's motivational brilliance? a central midfield of Carrick and Giggs, and he plays Chelsea off the park over two legs?
Tactics are not formation .. they are different , formation is just the road map of the game .. 4-4-2, 4-3-3..etc
what those 11 do , their role is what tactics is all about .. Eto'o as a winger on your game and a LB at times that's tactics and that's a game changing tactic
Alves winger in the first half of the classico last year than switched back to a RB .. that's tactics
It's nothing do with motivation or man management , picking up Zambrotta as the weakest link to use vs Barca in the semi-final , playing Messi as a false 9 for the first time in the 6-2 defeat.. that's tactics not formation
and no Emery is obsessive compulsive manager but can't take any of those names to school not in a million years , his plan is Capelloesque , score than defend in the second half.. he never made a game changing half time decision
anyhow time to prepare for our CL game
 

Metaphysical

Bomb Dropper
Tactics are not formation .. they are different , formation is just the road map of the game .. 4-4-2, 4-3-3..etc
what those 11 do , their role is what tactics is all about .. Eto'o as a winger on your game and a LB at times that's tactics and that's a game changing tactic
Alves winger in the first half of the classico last year than switched back to a RB .. that's tactics
It's nothing do with motivation or man management , picking up Zambrotta as the weakest link to use vs Barca in the semi-final , playing Messi as a false 9 for the first time in the 6-2 defeat.. that's tactics not formation
and no Emery is obsessive compulsive manager but can't take any of those names to school not in a million years , his plan is Capelloesque , score than defend in the second half.. he never made a game changing half time decision
anyhow time to prepare for our CL game

so

basically

a semantic argument

like I said

hrm
 

Cal-FCB

Wurzeltron
Zonalmarking is annoying, that Michael Cox guy pops up every now and then on the Guardian podcast. All that comes out of his mouth is stats or some shite about formations. That's all he ever argues with. Football has never been black and white, never will be.

I agree with what has been said above, you can't suddenly throw a load of tactics at a team before the game, you have to work on systems, moves etc in training, develop ways of playing. Minor tweaks in the game have far less effect.
 

barcetia

Mikrofonkåt
I think there's a reason for why poncircus name contains circus. He's clearly a clown or something. Tactics are not AS important vs bad teams, especially at home turfs but every system has a weakness, why not use the weakness?

I mean just look @ Pep. The change to 4-2-3-1 last year => barca became more unpredictable.
Messi -> CF => 6-2.
Manmark the fuck out of Xabi => 5-0.

How did Liverpool win the CL? How did Porto win the CL? How did Monaco reach the final? Sure.. you need players at your disposal aswell, but having good players won't be enough. Mental preparations before a match are vital, as are tactics and inspiration.

And to teach you something about Barca. We attack all the time, but we play defensive football. There's a big big difference between attacking football and defensive football. We might be the most defensive team on the planet, if you think outside the box. The accurate 100% passes are not to show off, simply to keep the ball out of the opposition, so that they might not score. Pep's "Barca is not a great team without the ball" is anoher evidence of tactics(we'r bad defensively, so let's be n offense all the time)...

Oh, another good example:
Unai Emery, 2 attacking leftbacks vs Barca that almost left us exposed. When Mathieu raped us in 5 holes wth one d. What was that?
 

Raed

Dr. Raed St. Claire
Well, then you obviously haven't read what I wrote. Well of course particular game tactics are vital. You can't play without a gameplan and knowing your opponent. But there are things in football that are more vital and require more work, knowledge and methodology to achieve than making a plan for particular game. And most people today with no real football experience are not aware of that. That's what I'm talking about.

Your argument is cute, I see your passion and admiration of talent and hard work of those players, especially that without the exceptional talent of some players, they can't unlock certain channels to success. I mean I do not blame you as you probably follow Barcelona and without Ronaldinho and Messi their entire system was absolutely garbage.

Beyond that though, very rarely has anyone ever managed to allocate that much talent in one pool, let alone be successful, which is the point here. Further away from training, as training is a given considering this is a sport, you say talent is the pulp of a successful team whereas others say tactics allows players to showcase their talent. I lean towards the latter only because I have played football all my life and I have been watching it for over 15 years. It is safe to assume that I have recognized some patterns.

Away from the Ronaldos and Messi and away from absolute garbage like Roque Junior (although, would be an interesting case), as I do not want to include any exceptional talents or incredibly untalented players and just to be nice, I will exclude complacent fucks like Recoba. Finding somewhere in the middle you'd find players like Mandieta and Robinho, two players from two different generations. They have both shined and disappeared. They have talent in abundance and that have at times made the world drop its jaw and at times raised question marks.

Fact is, without tactics these talented, hard working players cannot shine because without careful monitoring and instructions on how to better utilize their skills without jeopardizing the team, these players cannot become the players they are or were. Take Ronaldo for example, his club career has joined him with the absolute best in football, except all his career choices made him follow medicore managers who could not bear fruit. Which brings me to my next point.

The sport of football is not a individual game and without the platform that is tactics, players are lost on the field, their job is undefined and like an accountant or engineer, without a specific role they would not be able to finish a task as they don't know what it is. Tactics allow them to shine, and their talent is their capacity, the higher it is the more they can do. When a player is less talented, a manager defines him a specific role, limited to his abilities, extracting what is important without burdening them with extra duties, a la Beckham.

Back to Barcelona's point. Fact is, all that possession football Barcelona players is highly dependent on incredibly talented players from the tier of the exceptional 0.01% in the world. I completely understand that and I could see the weakness of Barcelona in that. But follow me on this one because beyond the abundance of talent in Barcelona lies a flexible system so finely tuned that it generated a fierce title winning team capable of playing football smashing beyond any opponent with ease.

First of all, the notion that Barcelona's attacking prowess stems from the incredible ability to hold onto the ball, for the blind eye, that is true. However, Barcelona's ball possession is defensive as it is offensive, in fact it is more of a defensive philosophy than it is offensive. To keep the ball away from the opponent is to basically rid the opponent of the tool to kill. That is something that Barcelona had master in order to unleash the talents up front who are responsible for your offensive force, a force that is highly dependant on talent. Yet, if the talent that makes this team win, why didn't Brazil 2006 shine? Why didn't Brazil 82 shine? Why did not Barcelona in 1992 win that CL match against an injury ridden AC Milan in the final and conceded 4?

How did an average player like Edmilson make it as a CL winner against the toughest of teams? The fact that Deco had as much influence on the defense as Edmilson goes unoticed, yet Deco's talents were far from defensive, yet with simple instructions and dirty methods, Deco made Barcelona unattackable.

Another question lies in the development of Messi. What would have been made of Messi had a player like Pedro not been available to defend from the top and rid Messi of any defending duties? Ronaldinho and Eto'o without Guily?

How does Barcelona's system work without Busquets dropping in the middle as Pique and Puyol spread wide?

Is Ji Sung Park talented? Was he not a major contributor to balancing Man U's team in Europe?

Talent alone cannot prevail, as management of that talent is much more important than assembling a good squad.

Forget Barcelona, I could go year by year explaining transformations they went through that wouldmake this rant even longer.

Take the example of Pavon, a player who had talent yet uneducated and unrefined. Some of his performances awarded him the title Spanish Nesta. If it wasn't for Ferrnando Hierro who walked him through every step of the way, he wouldn't have been able showcase these skills and when Hierro left, Pavon faded.

Football is not about tactics, it is about the hybrid of many elements from which talent is born, created, reformed and made to win. At the core of it all, tactics establishes a platform for talent to shine, it is the order behind the chaos, it is the hidden hand behind the magic trick, it is the safety net behind the risk, it essence behind poetry in motion.

Pep is a humble man, he will never claim responsibility for winning because he was player himself, he has had all the bells and whistles so he will not take it away from his own players.

Meta, stop blaming americans for everything, total football wasn't influenced by mad american tactical nerds playing football and basketball...nor was catenoccio...

the game has always been tactical, changing shape at every turn...you entire squad is a result of the tactics that have been implemented for the past decade and a half, not the other way around...
 

La Furia

Legion of Doooom
Your argument is cute, I see your passion and admiration of talent and hard work of those players, especially that without the exceptional talent of some players, they can't unlock certain channels to success. I mean I do not blame you as you probably follow Barcelona and without Ronaldinho and Messi their entire system was absolutely garbage.

Beyond that though, very rarely has anyone ever managed to allocate that much talent in one pool, let alone be successful, which is the point here. Further away from training, as training is a given considering this is a sport, you say talent is the pulp of a successful team whereas others say tactics allows players to showcase their talent. I lean towards the latter only because I have played football all my life and I have been watching it for over 15 years. It is safe to assume that I have recognized some patterns.

Away from the Ronaldos and Messi and away from absolute garbage like Roque Junior (although, would be an interesting case), as I do not want to include any exceptional talents or incredibly untalented players and just to be nice, I will exclude complacent fucks like Recoba. Finding somewhere in the middle you'd find players like Mandieta and Robinho, two players from two different generations. They have both shined and disappeared. They have talent in abundance and that have at times made the world drop its jaw and at times raised question marks.

Fact is, without tactics these talented, hard working players cannot shine because without careful monitoring and instructions on how to better utilize their skills without jeopardizing the team, these players cannot become the players they are or were. Take Ronaldo for example, his club career has joined him with the absolute best in football, except all his career choices made him follow medicore managers who could not bear fruit. Which brings me to my next point.

The sport of football is not a individual game and without the platform that is tactics, players are lost on the field, their job is undefined and like an accountant or engineer, without a specific role they would not be able to finish a task as they don't know what it is. Tactics allow them to shine, and their talent is their capacity, the higher it is the more they can do. When a player is less talented, a manager defines him a specific role, limited to his abilities, extracting what is important without burdening them with extra duties, a la Beckham.

Back to Barcelona's point. Fact is, all that possession football Barcelona players is highly dependent on incredibly talented players from the tier of the exceptional 0.01% in the world. I completely understand that and I could see the weakness of Barcelona in that. But follow me on this one because beyond the abundance of talent in Barcelona lies a flexible system so finely tuned that it generated a fierce title winning team capable of playing football smashing beyond any opponent with ease.

First of all, the notion that Barcelona's attacking prowess stems from the incredible ability to hold onto the ball, for the blind eye, that is true. However, Barcelona's ball possession is defensive as it is offensive, in fact it is more of a defensive philosophy than it is offensive. To keep the ball away from the opponent is to basically rid the opponent of the tool to kill. That is something that Barcelona had master in order to unleash the talents up front who are responsible for your offensive force, a force that is highly dependant on talent. Yet, if the talent that makes this team win, why didn't Brazil 2006 shine? Why didn't Brazil 82 shine? Why did not Barcelona in 1992 win that CL match against an injury ridden AC Milan in the final and conceded 4?

How did an average player like Edmilson make it as a CL winner against the toughest of teams? The fact that Deco had as much influence on the defense as Edmilson goes unoticed, yet Deco's talents were far from defensive, yet with simple instructions and dirty methods, Deco made Barcelona unattackable.

Another question lies in the development of Messi. What would have been made of Messi had a player like Pedro not been available to defend from the top and rid Messi of any defending duties? Ronaldinho and Eto'o without Guily?

How does Barcelona's system work without Busquets dropping in the middle as Pique and Puyol spread wide?

Is Ji Sung Park talented? Was he not a major contributor to balancing Man U's team in Europe?

Talent alone cannot prevail, as management of that talent is much more important than assembling a good squad.

Forget Barcelona, I could go year by year explaining transformations they went through that wouldmake this rant even longer.

Take the example of Pavon, a player who had talent yet uneducated and unrefined. Some of his performances awarded him the title Spanish Nesta. If it wasn't for Ferrnando Hierro who walked him through every step of the way, he wouldn't have been able showcase these skills and when Hierro left, Pavon faded.

Football is not about tactics, it is about the hybrid of many elements from which talent is born, created, reformed and made to win. At the core of it all, tactics establishes a platform for talent to shine, it is the order behind the chaos, it is the hidden hand behind the magic trick, it is the safety net behind the risk, it essence behind poetry in motion.

Pep is a humble man, he will never claim responsibility for winning because he was player himself, he has had all the bells and whistles so he will not take it away from his own players.

Meta, stop blaming americans for everything, total football wasn't influenced by mad american tactical nerds playing football and basketball...nor was catenoccio...

the game has always been tactical, changing shape at every turn...you entire squad is a result of the tactics that have been implemented for the past decade and a half, not the other way around...

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Koma

Member
Your argument is cute, I see your passion and admiration of talent and hard work of those players, especially that without the exceptional talent of some players, they can't unlock certain channels to success. I mean I do not blame you as you probably follow Barcelona and without Ronaldinho and Messi their entire system was absolutely garbage.

Beyond that though, very rarely has anyone ever managed to allocate that much talent in one pool, let alone be successful, which is the point here. Further away from training, as training is a given considering this is a sport, you say talent is the pulp of a successful team whereas others say tactics allows players to showcase their talent. I lean towards the latter only because I have played football all my life and I have been watching it for over 15 years. It is safe to assume that I have recognized some patterns.

Away from the Ronaldos and Messi and away from absolute garbage like Roque Junior (although, would be an interesting case), as I do not want to include any exceptional talents or incredibly untalented players and just to be nice, I will exclude complacent fucks like Recoba. Finding somewhere in the middle you'd find players like Mandieta and Robinho, two players from two different generations. They have both shined and disappeared. They have talent in abundance and that have at times made the world drop its jaw and at times raised question marks.

Fact is, without tactics these talented, hard working players cannot shine because without careful monitoring and instructions on how to better utilize their skills without jeopardizing the team, these players cannot become the players they are or were. Take Ronaldo for example, his club career has joined him with the absolute best in football, except all his career choices made him follow medicore managers who could not bear fruit. Which brings me to my next point.

The sport of football is not a individual game and without the platform that is tactics, players are lost on the field, their job is undefined and like an accountant or engineer, without a specific role they would not be able to finish a task as they don't know what it is. Tactics allow them to shine, and their talent is their capacity, the higher it is the more they can do. When a player is less talented, a manager defines him a specific role, limited to his abilities, extracting what is important without burdening them with extra duties, a la Beckham.

Back to Barcelona's point. Fact is, all that possession football Barcelona players is highly dependent on incredibly talented players from the tier of the exceptional 0.01% in the world. I completely understand that and I could see the weakness of Barcelona in that. But follow me on this one because beyond the abundance of talent in Barcelona lies a flexible system so finely tuned that it generated a fierce title winning team capable of playing football smashing beyond any opponent with ease.

First of all, the notion that Barcelona's attacking prowess stems from the incredible ability to hold onto the ball, for the blind eye, that is true. However, Barcelona's ball possession is defensive as it is offensive, in fact it is more of a defensive philosophy than it is offensive. To keep the ball away from the opponent is to basically rid the opponent of the tool to kill. That is something that Barcelona had master in order to unleash the talents up front who are responsible for your offensive force, a force that is highly dependant on talent. Yet, if the talent that makes this team win, why didn't Brazil 2006 shine? Why didn't Brazil 82 shine? Why did not Barcelona in 1992 win that CL match against an injury ridden AC Milan in the final and conceded 4?

How did an average player like Edmilson make it as a CL winner against the toughest of teams? The fact that Deco had as much influence on the defense as Edmilson goes unoticed, yet Deco's talents were far from defensive, yet with simple instructions and dirty methods, Deco made Barcelona unattackable.

Another question lies in the development of Messi. What would have been made of Messi had a player like Pedro not been available to defend from the top and rid Messi of any defending duties? Ronaldinho and Eto'o without Guily?

How does Barcelona's system work without Busquets dropping in the middle as Pique and Puyol spread wide?

Is Ji Sung Park talented? Was he not a major contributor to balancing Man U's team in Europe?

Talent alone cannot prevail, as management of that talent is much more important than assembling a good squad.

Forget Barcelona, I could go year by year explaining transformations they went through that wouldmake this rant even longer.

Take the example of Pavon, a player who had talent yet uneducated and unrefined. Some of his performances awarded him the title Spanish Nesta. If it wasn't for Ferrnando Hierro who walked him through every step of the way, he wouldn't have been able showcase these skills and when Hierro left, Pavon faded.

Football is not about tactics, it is about the hybrid of many elements from which talent is born, created, reformed and made to win. At the core of it all, tactics establishes a platform for talent to shine, it is the order behind the chaos, it is the hidden hand behind the magic trick, it is the safety net behind the risk, it essence behind poetry in motion.

Pep is a humble man, he will never claim responsibility for winning because he was player himself, he has had all the bells and whistles so he will not take it away from his own players.

Meta, stop blaming americans for everything, total football wasn't influenced by mad american tactical nerds playing football and basketball...nor was catenoccio...

the game has always been tactical, changing shape at every turn...you entire squad is a result of the tactics that have been implemented for the past decade and a half, not the other way around...

I don't think so.
 

Raed

Dr. Raed St. Claire
The argument was that tactics were not as important as they are made out to be when in fact they are. They are neither overrated or underrated. Some managers are more competent than others at tactics but some managers cover their lack of tactical awareness with man management.
 
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