Real Madrid (old thread)

[Xavi_78]

I just do not like this "best team in the world" stuff, in particular form opposing fans. Normaly they do not mean it as compliment or honestly but just as a stick to beat us with if we fail or have difficultiies: oh look "the best team" should win this easily, seems they are just overrated

 

[El Gato]

And who does that around here ? Did Beast ever make silly comments about Madrid being better than 'the best team in the world' ? No ? So you shouldn't complain about it really, because I don't remember anyone using that label as an excuse to laugh of Barcelona when they lose. Single losses do not change anything, you lost to Hercules you're still the best team in the world today, no matter what someone else says.

 

[Birdy]

Pep didn't do something special, just approached the pieces and put them together which was easy with the caliber of players that you had at that moment. Making a mediocre team like Madrid start to play and achieve results at higher levels is a whole lot harder than that.

Lol!
the most hilarious post ever.. pep did not do something special and hard.. he had an easy task.. Tahts why rijkaard was playing shit with the same players..
Mourinho has a really harder job, with presidents buying always all the top class he wants..

 

[El Gato]

Same players ? Deco, Zambrotta, Henry and who was it, Milito or Thuram (?) as a CB ? I think they are somewhat different to Alves, Busquets, Pedro or Pique, no ?

The reason for Pep's results was that he chose the players wisely and spread the roles properly and blended them in together. All of those guys turned out to be perfect for their jobs (maybe Busquets and Pedro had a slower start than others) and all it took is 3-4 months of blending the team together and restoring morale after unsuccessful seasons. Pep had much better team collective to work with which made it easier for him to achieve success quickly.
Mourinho didn't have that. He had to teach Marcelo to defend, he had a monumental task of going up against best offensive force in the world and had to prepare the team for it. He had to glue the whole offensive formation together, Di Maria still actually suffers from bad habits he picked up and Mourinho was trying to wear them off somewhat, but didn't work out and he put mediocre performances against Barca in April.

Don't get me wrong. I really respect Pep for what he did, but it was much easier for him to create a team than it was and still is for Mourinho.

a mediocre team?, the most expensive team in the world? no you take it too far? Pep took over a team who was complete out of order, Mou took over a team who just had reached a record total of point in La Liga

Since when is a total result in La Liga any significant to the team quality ? Madrid was still a mediocre team under Pellegrini despite scoring massive amount of points and goals. The teams that are not mediocre do not crumble under pressure of playing.. Lyon..

 

[Xavi_78]

First, who ever said that Mou's CdR winning season was bigger than the sextuple ?

Second, you're exactly right there hence why I'm asking why do you even bring it up ? Was RM a complete disarray when Mourinho first arrived ? He changed 3-4 players in the starting line-up, that's it, he didn't have to change the whole complexity of the team, didn't need to teach them a lot except defensive responsibilities where as Guardiola had to introduce the advanced concepts of pressing, of dominating the ball possession, but also in general he could simply watch them play when they got the message. These are two different cases and it is absolutely silly to make any assumptions as to mediocrity of Mourinho's year in Madrid. But sure, if you want to judge first seasons then I would love to see Guardiola go up in his first season against the best team in the world today like Mourinho had to. It would sure test his strength as a manager.



Real won the league twice, so what ? They got embarrassed by mediocre teams in Europe and that should tell you how shit Barcelona was at that time. Pep didn't do something special, just approached the pieces and put them together which was easy with the caliber of players that you had at that moment. Making a mediocre team like Madrid start to play and achieve results at higher levels is a whole lot harder than that.

a mediocre team?, the most expensive team in the world? no you take it too far? Pep took over a team who was complete out of order, Mou took over a team who just had reached a record total of point in La Liga

 

[Birdy]

Same players ? Deco, Zambrotta, Henry and who was it, Milito or Thuram (?) as a CB ? I think they are somewhat different to Alves, Busquets, Pedro or Pique, no ?

The reason for Pep's results was that he chose the players wisely and spread the roles properly and blended them in together. All of those guys turned out to be perfect for their jobs (maybe Busquets and Pedro had a slower start than others) and all it took is 3-4 months of blending the team together and restoring morale after unsuccessful seasons. Pep had much better team collective to work with which made it easier for him to achieve success quickly.
Mourinho didn't have that. He had to teach Marcelo to defend, he had a monumental task of going up against best offensive force in the world and had to prepare the team for it. He had to glue the whole offensive formation together, Di Maria still actually suffers from bad habits he picked up and Mourinho was trying to wear them off somewhat, but didn't work out and he put mediocre performances against Barca in April.

Don't get me wrong. I really respect Pep for what he did, but it was much easier for him to create a team than it was and still is for Mourinho.


Since when is a total result in La Liga any significant to the team quality ? Madrid was still a mediocre team under Pellegrini despite scoring massive amount of points and goals. The teams that are not mediocre do not crumble under pressure of playing.. Lyon..

Nice try, but no!

1) 07-08 season ronaldinho played very very little and deco start gradually giving his place to iniesta.. The 08-09 team was the same in terms of personel with some adjustments..
Basic first XI only difference turned out (cauz pique was not expected to be integrated in the team so quickly) to be Pique and alvez .. Guardiola opted that summer for one change in the RB position.. not any reshuffle really.. And even if alvez had arrived in 2007 he alone would not be able to save the team from the shitty season..

2) Pep did not only restore morale and distributed roles.. these are nothing comparing to what he really did.. The guy went in the very root of everything and completely reformed it.. He altered the core of this team, he brought a new (old) philosophy..

3) what do you really mean? did you remember Eto or messi ever defending before guardiola? He had not only to fix these minor parameters but to fix a team that, after Ten Cate, everyone was playing for himself and the dressing room also sucked..

And are those factors considered more important for you than what i mentioned before? Do you really think its harder to teach someone to defend than to rebuild the basis of a team both on the pitch and in mentality???


On the contrary, its easier to ask for this player, that player and of course find the most expensive squad in europe.. Of course he did something, but its silly to compare it with what guardiola has done, even in his first year.. Only Ferguson can be compared, from the recent football history examples..

PS: Pellegrini's Real was on the construction phase.. Not an established mediocre team.. And his mentality in the team, despite the results, was much better than Mourinho one.. Mourinho humiliated Real Madrid with the choices he made against barcelona..

 

[FCBarca]

Calderon speaking to ONA FM re: Mourinho & the mess at RM

"You can have millions of fans cheering for you, but Hitler was also acclaimed by millions of people before he took a tumble.

I feel sorry for Madrid and Florentino. Yesterday [during the announcement that Valdano will leave Madrid] I had the sensation of seeing a student who didn't know the lesson taking a primary exam.

They talked so much about dysfunction that they may as well of been talking about erectile dysfunction. It reflects a pathetic picture. It was like seeing a corpse in search of a coffin.

We must not bury our heads into the sand. Madrid's Florentino Perez have won the same amount of trophies as Betis, Zaragoza and Espanyol in his five years in office."

 

[El Gato]

2) Pep did not only restore morale and distributed roles.. these are nothing comparing to what he really did.. The guy went in the very root of everything and completely reformed it.. He altered the core of this team, he brought a new (old) philosophy..

3) what do you really mean? did you remember Eto or messi ever defending before guardiola? He had not only to fix these minor parameters but to fix a team that, after Ten Cate, everyone was playing for himself and the dressing room also sucked..

And are those factors considered more important for you than what i mentioned before? Do you really think its harder to teach someone to defend than to rebuild the basis of a team both on the pitch and in mentality???

On the contrary, its easier to ask for this player, that player and of course find the most expensive squad in europe.. Of course he did something, but its silly to compare it with what guardiola has done, even in his first year.. Only Ferguson can be compared, from the recent football history examples..

PS: Pellegrini's Real was on the construction phase.. Not an established mediocre team.. And his mentality in the team, despite the results, was much better than Mourinho one.. Mourinho humiliated Real Madrid with the choices he made against barcelona.

Yes, partially, but even though he did return to the philosophy from the past he didn't change the image and the way Barca dominated the games too much. He added various aspects to the game and taught the new boys Barca system of play and the younger ones like Messi, Pique, Busquets and Pedro came to understand it way quicker. He didn't change the roles of the players who were left over except those that were already crucial parts of Barca game like Xavi or Puyi. Eto'o remained a poacher that he was. Not EVERY aspect introduced was new.

It is harder to teach the team new philosophy than to teach someone to defend, but look how quickly Barcelona came to learn it ? Team started to play like they were born to do this in less than half a season. This is because of easier environment for Pep to work in. I doubt that he would succeed anywhere else except Barca with that type of approach, which is pretty obvious, but then that doesn't make Pep a genius. He did a great job, he proved himself as a coach and a motivator in crucial moments, but the transformation wasn't as big as people say.

Now, I didn't say that Mourinho transformed RM. In fact the only new bits of the philosophy he introduced was discipline on the pitch and trust between the teammates. When he realized what offensive package he had, he put the whole weight on Ronaldo and it somewhat took a toll, but not due to Mourinho's decision. He had to make sure that the new players were fitting his strategy. He carried players from rubbish status to the very top shelf of their positions. He had to overcome the pressure of having to face Barca, he had to deal with the pressure of regaining prestige in Europe and with that mentality it was extremely difficult to do. Now in this season he increases team's hunger even more.

Pellegrini's team was a mediocre team in the construction phase How can someone not be mediocre or overrated when as a team they fail their most important test ? That's only as a team. Individually you could pick out better and worse performers.


Calderon.... what a moron, who would even try such a Hilter comparison....

 

[Catalonian Devil]

Real won the league twice, so what ? They got embarrassed by mediocre teams in Europe and that should tell you how shit Barcelona was at that time. Pep didn't do something special, just approached the pieces and put them together which was easy with the caliber of players that you had at that moment. Making a mediocre team like Madrid start to play and achieve results at higher levels is a whole lot harder than that.

I respect your opinion Wolfe but what you said here is simply ridiculous.

" Pep didn't do something special, just approached the pieces and put them together" ? Seriously? That's all he did??

What about a team that didn't care about coming late to training anymore?
What about a team that have been in free fall for two consecutive years?
What about a team that have lost the best player in the world to alcohol and blowjobs?
What about the fact that he was operating under immense pressure and constantly being under the media microscope who didn't approve of him?
What about the fact the this was his FIRST EVER major coaching job?
What about the fact that he introduced two new simple and genius concepts to our play, keeping possession and the intense pressing with 2 players when without the ball, that have transformed us to a team hailed by most as the best ever ?
What about the fact that he turned Messi into a bigger beast than he already was?
What about the fact that he managed to keep a motivated squad for three consecutive years, with 3 La Liga's on the trot in the bag and 1 ( potentially 2) CL trophies as well?

Mostly if you believe that winning ALL the competitions he played in, achieving the sextuple, after such a poor season, is 'nothing special' I really don't know what to say.
I can't comprehend how Jose can even come close to what Pep did in his first year in charge. You speak as if our squad was already all set but just need a bit of tweaking, it was already full of talent you say.
Ronaldo, Xabi, Higuain, Kaka, Ramos, Casillas, if that's not talent I don't know what is.


Its one thing to have your team win one or two trophies and improve their overall performances, but going from complete free fall to dominating the world, with beautiful football, in one season questions the existence of a 'transitional period'.

 

[gingerless]

this stuff is too funny

 

[Raed]

Pep Guardiola took a winning team and saved it from fully sinking, by getting rid of its troubled magicians and luckily enough able to land it on its untroubled/well behaved magicians. The brilliance in Pep's reign is not what he had to do but what has continued to do: win. Continuity is what makes up for Pep's magic and brilliance.

Mourinho on the other hand gave confidence to those who want to succeed and protected them during their worst times. It is a waiting game because the elements need time to fuse together. I still maintain the league was within reach despite the Classicos because we threw away shitty games because of Mourinho's stubbornness. However nobody is exempt from mistakes.


Calderon is an idiot, like a real idiot. That is very offensive.

 

[El Gato]

You've seriously misunderstood me Devil.

I agree with most of your sentences and issues outlined, but these only answer the sentence that you took out of context (maybe I should've something different than 'Pep didn't do something special' and that post overall since it causes the most arguments)..

I have also said what I mean and I'm not going to repeat myself. As you say he had some talent, he brought in a new style of play to which Barcelona has suited in no-time and made it work quickly by bringing out the potential from his best players eg. Messi, Alves. It's a superb job for a coach, but to me it's not a genius work, he just came in and met with the best possible starting materials for his philosophy which accelerated success. And as I said, I have tonnes of respect for Pep, no-one else in the world would make Barca what they have become and he gets credit for it.

As to your points about Madrid, it's not about talent and I wasn't really speaking about talent in Barcelona context either. It's about the ability of the players to adapt to coach's orders, formations, tactics and consistency. Barca's players from 2008 onwards are best at doing so and have room to improve. Mourinho's situation was much different in these terms.

Either way I think this argument should stop here


BTW
Lassana Diarra is going to be offered new contract with Real Madrid. Now it is completely up to him and whether he decides to stay and play a major midfield role or whether he'll want to leave and be a regular starter somewhere else.

 

[Catalonian Devil]

You've seriously misunderstood me Devil.

I agree with most of your sentences and issues outlined, but these only answer the sentence that you took out of context (maybe I should've something different than 'Pep didn't do something special' and that post overall since it causes the most arguments)..

I have also said what I mean and I'm not going to repeat myself. As you say he had some talent, he brought in a new style of play to which Barcelona has suited in no-time and made it work quickly by bringing out the potential from his best players eg. Messi, Alves. It's a superb job for a coach, but to me it's not a genius work, he just came in and met with the best possible starting materials for his philosophy which accelerated success. And as I said, I have tonnes of respect for Pep, no-one else in the world would make Barca what they have become and he gets credit for it.

As to your points about Madrid, it's not about talent and I wasn't really speaking about talent in Barcelona context either. It's about the ability of the players to adapt to coach's orders, formations, tactics and consistency. Barca's players from 2008 onwards are best at doing so and have room to improve. Mourinho's situation was much different in these terms.

Either way I think this argument should stop here


BTW
Lassana Diarra is going to be offered new contract with Real Madrid. Now it is completely up to him and whether he decides to stay and play a major midfield role or whether he'll want to leave and be a regular starter somewhere else.

The 'he didn't nothing special' threw me off I guess...

Anyways I agree with Raed that what Pep did in the following years was even more impressive than his work in his first season. His first season might not have been genius, but it came very close. You could succeed with turning a team around and write it off as a successful season, but going all the way in all competitions is going the extra yard, it is crossing the line that separate the good from the great. Jose did a very good job with Real, even though I try not to mention that due to the immense hate I have for the cunt. However, I do honestly believe he failed two main tests, the first Classico, and the way he handled the whole Quad-Classico matter. Everytime he went down the mind games road and the negative tactics in the past he managed to somehow keep everything within the boundaries, and maintain a good balance, this season however, it backfired. He pushed a tad too hard on all fronts and it backfired terribly. I would give him an A for everything else, all the points you mentioned, but when it came to clutch time in both cases I would give him an F. Having said that he did well in other vital games.


Moving on...

I think the fact that Jose is hated with so much passion has blinded us from a serious change of management policy in the Santiago. Since when did Madrid actually give a coach the final word? Since when did they actually oppose interference with the manager's work? We're saying Madrid has abandoned everything and became Mourinho FC, well, weren't we ourselves laughing our asses off at how managers were being treated in the Santiago? How very little say they had on their own team? Sacking Valdano might look a tad extreme at first sight, but it was a case of Madrid either sticking to their old policy of turning managers into puppets, which hasn't exactly been working, or actually taking a step back and letting the coach do his damn job. Unfortunately for them the correct decision came at an expense, since of course Jose and Valdano cannot coexist, Valdano was the price they had to pay to adapt a new management policy at Madrid.

Has this been any other manager, we would have been looking at this differently. Barcelona has to take note that this is the beginning of a new regime in Real, be it Mouinho FC or not, its only gonna get tougher from here on as Real Madrid have finally came to their senses.

 

[Raed]

The 'he didn't nothing special' threw me off I guess...

Anyways I agree with Raed that what Pep did in the following years was even more impressive than his work in his first season. His first season might not have been genius, but it came very close. You could succeed with turning a team around and write it off as a successful season, but going all the way in all competitions is going the extra yard, it is crossing the line that separate the good from the great. Jose did a very good job with Real, even though I try not to mention that due to the immense hate I have for the cunt. However, I do honestly believe he failed two main tests, the first Classico, and the way he handled the whole Quad-Classico matter. Everytime he went down the mind games road and the negative tactics in the past he managed to somehow keep everything within the boundaries, and maintain a good balance, this season however, it backfired. He pushed a tad too hard on all fronts and it backfired terribly. I would give him an A for everything else, all the points you mentioned, but when it came to clutch time in both cases I would give him an F. Having said that he did well in other vital games.


Moving on...

I think the fact that Jose is hated with so much passion has blinded us from a serious change of management policy in the Santiago. Since when did Madrid actually give a coach the final word? Since when did they actually oppose interference with the manager's work? We're saying Madrid has abandoned everything and became Mourinho FC, well, weren't we ourselves laughing our asses off at how managers were being treated in the Santiago? How very little say they had on their own team? Sacking Valdano might look a tad extreme at first sight, but it was a case of Madrid either sticking to their old policy of turning managers into puppets, which hasn't exactly been working, or actually taking a step back and letting the coach do his damn job. Unfortunately for them the correct decision came at an expense, since of course Jose and Valdano cannot coexist, Valdano was the price they had to pay to adapt a new management policy at Madrid.

Has this been any other manager, we would have been looking at this differently. Barcelona has to take note that this is the beginning of a new regime in Real, be it Mouinho FC or not, its only gonna get tougher from here on as Real Madrid have finally came to their senses.

Some sense, finally.

 

[yusuf]

calderon is a legend