Ronaldo

[L3v1s]

Mate, I am a Liverpool fan. While Suarez scored some bangers against Norwich and lesser teams, he was pretty disappointing against the top teams.


He was excellent for us overall but that team wasn't as crap as people say. Sturridge was in the form of his life and formed a great partnership with Suarez and Gerrard was great in his more mature role. We had a young Sterling emerging who was rapid and exciting. We played some good football under Brendan.


Suarez almost won us the league. Lewandowski actually won Dortmund the league against Bayern multiple times and took them to a CL final scoring 4 against Madrid in the semis. Big difference.

Lewandowski at Dortmund played with a more talented squad, most of those players ended up having very good careers. The likes of Gundogan, Mkhitaryan ended up playing for big clubs all his career, Reus, Hummels, Gotze etc. Bayern was only entering its peak by that time, and since you consider the Premier League the best league in the world that makes Suarez's achievements even more impressive. Liverpool had a few prospects at the time but look at their next season after Suarez left.

If we compared iconic moments, Lewandowski has a few like the poker against Madrid, the 5 goals against Wolfsburg, the Clasico brace recently, breaking Bundesliga records etc. But Suarez overshadows him and every other striker of the last decade in this regard.
Suarez had that incredible season with Liverpool, scored a hattrick in El Clasico in 2018, scored the winner to clinch the league title in El Clasico in 2014/15, goal against Juventus in the final, and that monstruous 15/16 season.

And despite playing for a ridiculous Bayern for quite a few years, Lewandowski was never on that level that Suarez reached despite having a team of similar quality as 2014-16 Barca, plus in a lot of big matches he wasnt very influential either.

 

[Maradona37]

Also, you say Lewa never played with Ronaldo or Messi - can look at that another way as I suggested earlier - means he was always the focal point of goalscoring, unlike Benz or Suarez. Look at how much they scored when they were the focal point ie Liverpool or post Ronaldo RM.

We can spin everything in diametrically opposite ways.

 

[Temptation]

Fair enough, I can reach a consensus with you on some of that there.

Gerrard's biggest weaknesses have always been positioning and being a Hollywood ball merchant, as well as his 100mph stupid Roy of the Rovers style of play. I never rated him close to as highly as guys like you do. I would have David Silva over him (different types of players) and I am being serious.

Yes, I remember some of the SAS combo, brilliant. I just feel you are looking for reasons to put down Suarez so you can elevate Lewa.

Silva is very underrated and absolutely brilliant. I got a lot of hate here for claiming Silva wouldn't look out of place in Pep's Barca.

Gerrard's defensive positioning isn't really a weakness for his actual position and role in the team. He's supposed to be the aggressive tackler that presses the opponents and dives into tackles to win the ball back. He's not a deep lying midfielder who shields the defense like an Alonso. Gerrard is supposed to play alongside a disciplined DM with good positional sense or further forward. It's simply not his job so not a weakness.

If you want a main man, it's Gerrard over Silva anyday.

If you want a player to effortlessly slot into a possession based system like a Pep team, you'll obviously pick Silva.

Silva and Gerrard can play together under the right manager in my opinion. Silva is a safe and reliable player while Gerrard is a risk taker(like KDB).

I have never seen a more complete footballer than Gerrard though. He was so versatile. Played as an RWB for sometime in the CL final to make Rafa's tactics work against Milan.

 

[Maradona37]

Ultimately, Tempt, it all comes down to me thinking Benzema and Suarez are simply better at playing football than Lewa. It isn't a slight on Lewa, as he's an excellent footballer himself, miles better than someone like Haaland, for example.

All the other stuff - career stats, BDs, trophies, is taken into account, but mostly I just care that they were better footballers than him and generally showcased that. it's that simple.

 

[L3v1s]

Also, didnt Lewandowski play with these unknown footballers named Ribery and Robben? You know that french guy who was nominated for the Ballon D'or and won best player in Europe? Or the bald dutch guy who's arguably one of the best wingers of the last decade... That Bayern team was stacked.

 

[Maradona37]

Silva is very underrated and absolutely brilliant. I got a lot of hate here for claiming Silva wouldn't look out of place in Pep's Barca.

Gerrard's defensive positioning isn't really a weakness for his actual position and role in the team. He's supposed to be the aggressive tackler that presses the opponents and dives into tackles to win the ball back. He's not a deep lying midfielder who shields the defense like an Alonso. Gerrard is supposed to play alongside a disciplined DM with good positional sense or further forward. It's simply not his job so not a weakness.

If you want a main man, it's Gerrard over Silva anyday.

If you want a player to effortlessly slot into a possession based system like a Pep team, you'll obviously pick Silva.

Silva and Gerrard can play together under the right manager in my opinion. Silva is a safe and reliable player while Gerrard is a risk taker(like KDB).

I have never seen a more complete footballer than Gerrard though. He was so versatile. Played as an RWB for sometime in the CL final to make Rafa's tactics work against Milan.

Good post, especially considering I thought you would abuse me for saying Silva over Gerrard. I agree with the vast majority, other than Gerrard being the most complete - too poor positionally, couldn't control games particularly well, defensively too rash, too many Hollywood balls, low football IQ at times, too reliant on his athleticism etc.

Beckenbauer or Gullit for example are miles more complete than Gerrard. But other than me disagreeing with that it's a good post.

 

[Maradona37]

Also, didnt Lewandowski play with these unknown footballers named Ribery and Robben? You know that french guy who was nominated for the Ballon D'or and won best player in Europe? Or the bald dutch guy who's arguably one of the best wingers of the last decade... That Bayern team was stacked.

Plus (and Tempt will say I don't rate Bundesliga now, but I do) there were several good teams in Germany at that time, but Bayern were by far the strongest and had a monopoly on the league. Now, part of that is because of how good a striker Lewa was and is, but still the point must be made.

It's just eidiculous that people unironically call Messi 'Eiberman' while wanking over Robert for scoring against relegation fodder in the BL.

They had no real competition for the league most seasons. At least in La Liga the Clasico sides fought each other and Atletico often got involved too.

 

[Temptation]

Also, you say Lewa never played with Ronaldo or Messi - can look at that another way as I suggested earlier - means he was always the focal point of goalscoring, unlike Benz or Suarez. Look at how much they scored when they were the focal point ie Liverpool or post Ronaldo RM.

We can spin everything in diametrically opposite ways.

Didn't Suarez have a better scoring record for Barca than he had for Liverpool? He scored more when Messi and Neymar(two of the best creators ever) fed him.


Messi in particular is an absolute freak in terms of creating chances and space for his strikers. Suarez should have scored way more goals in his last 2/3 years at Barca. Messi was creating so much for him.

 

[Maradona37]

Didn't Suarez have a better scoring record for Barca than he had for Liverpool? He scored more when Messi and Neymar(two of the best creators ever) fed him.


Messi in particular is an absolute freak in terms of creating chances and space for his strikers. Suarez should have scored way more goals in his last 2/3 years at Barca. Messi was creating so much for him.

Fair point, but it was you who implied Suarez has more assists because of how good finishers Neymar and Messi were. That's football though - all three were great finishers and great creatively and they were a plexus that set each other up, accounting for all their brilliance. Same with Ronaldo, Benz and Bale and Lewa and Robbery.

You have neglected to reply to some of my points in this debate (deliberately so I suspect, as you couldn't think of a retort), but it's ok. Believe it ot not, I do rate Lewa very highly too. Just don't like you putting down guys like R9, Suarez and Benzema to elevate him. There's no need for it.

 

[Temptation]

Also, didnt Lewandowski play with these unknown footballers named Ribery and Robben? You know that french guy who was nominated for the Ballon D'or and won best player in Europe? Or the bald dutch guy who's arguably one of the best wingers of the last decade... That Bayern team was stacked.

Robbery were injured half the time and never elite level goal scorers lol. They were proper modern wingers. Great players though. Try harder.

 

[Temptation]

Fair point, but it was you who implied Suarez has more assists because of how good finishers Neymar and Messi were. That's football though - all three were great finishers and great creatively and they were a plexus that set each other up, accounting for all their brilliance.

It's true though.


Messi is a phenomenon and some of the things he converted is simply a dream for other players. The guy consistently converted low xG chances.

 

[Maradona37]

It's true though.


Messi is a phenomenon and some of the things he converted is simply a dream for other players. The guy consistently converted low xG chances.

Yeah in Barca's case it is true, and I agree. I am just saying you are changing from exagerated assists to now saying Suarez scored more for Barca than Liverpool (which is true). Obviously playing with Messi helps a lot in that sense, you are right.

I don't think it's fair to level the same at Benz though as Ronaldo missed a lot of chances, he was a bigger volume shooter than Messi (look at the subreddit TopRightMessi).

Anyway, the overall point, is that all the players need each other - that is what being in a team is all about. I never disputed that. Playing with Messi is a bit of a cheat code though, yes, but Luis proved how good he was at Liverpool, Atleti and Uruguay too (and Ajax).

 

[Maradona37]

Anyway, I get the feeling we are arguing over nothing, really.

Nobody denies that Lewa is a world-class striker, or one of the best forwards of the last 30 years. But you want people to say he is categorically better than guys like Suarez and Benzema, and even L Ronaldo, and a line must be drawn there. Peace.

 

[Windhook]

Robbery were injured half the time and never elite level goal scorers lol. They were proper modern wingers. Great players though. Try harder.

Comments like this are waste of time. Proper wingers? It's insulting to even Robbery non-fans as I am.

 

[Maradona37]

Comments like this are waste of time. Proper wingers? It's insulting to even Robbery non-fans as I am.

He means they were inverted, playmaking or goalscoring (Robben) wingers these days, playing on their 'wrong' side, rather than chalk on the boots old style Jimmy Johnstone or Willie Henderson types who got down the line and crossed. The way the game has gone in recent decades.

You probably know this already, just clarifying.