Sergio Busquets

BADGERBHOY

Senior Member
I don't know why that always get's brought up after these defeats. We didn't get slaughtered because of "Barca DNA", if anything we got slaughtered because we lost the Barca DNA years ago.

There seems to be this messed up idea of Barca style meaning playing slow 80% possessions with just weak midgets but imo thats far from true. Ajax last season played with more "Barca DNA" in them than any Barca team pretty much since at least 2012 or so.

Over the years the team lost everything that makes the Barca style. They aren't superior on a technical level, there is no movement, no pressing and it's honestly not surprising considering how many players lack speed and stamina. These are fundamentals that simply aren't there and it's not because of Barca DNA or not, it's because of piss poor squad planning and bad coaches. Barto and the boys could abandon everything they know (or think they know) about the Barca DNA and they still wouldn't be able to build a proper team.

Rakitic, Vidal, Semedo, Suarez etc that's already far away from Barca DNA. They are just a bunch of random players put together into this shitty slow 4-4-2 because that's all we have left.

Barca DNA doesn't prevent someone from making runs or pressing, i mean it's actually the contrary because movement is an integral part of that style. It also doesn't necessarily mean you can't cross or play regular corners. Sure the style should usually suit smaller players more but it's not like you automatically can't have some taller players as well.

Abandoning the idea of Barca DNA won't get us anywhere, but whoever takes over has to seriously put in effort to actually enforce the Barca style again instead of this half assed mix of washed up stars and misfits. Lucho saw the writing on the wall and simply abused having a cheatcode like forward trio, Valverde further fueled into it by riding the seniors to the ground but now we actually hit rock bottom because there simply is no life left in them.

The current boards idea of Barca DNA seems to be that some nice passing here and there is already enough or playing some decent football for coaches. Or even easier, it magically get's injected by wearing the Barca shirt as a player. Big suprise how that didn't work out :lol:

This all day long. We need to get back to what made previous Barcelona teams successful in the first place. As you say, this has been eroded in the last few years by very poor coaching and player acquisitions.

We also need to figure out the optimum time to move certain players on. Unfortunately, that time has long been and gone for most of these players, and we'll be lucky to get anything at all for most of them.
 

MTL_Barca

Well-known member
Sold Ronnie, Etoo, Gudi, Edmilson, Motta etc

Average height and strength dropped massively from Rijkaard to Pep.

For me, Pep would play with 10 David Silvas/Iniestas on a field if he would have them.
Midfielders, fullbacks, Cbs, pivots, wingers, attackers.

And these 10 could probably still easily outrun our senior team :lol:

Players should have a certain level of technical skills and football IQ, good coach is also very important for both of that seeing how Abidal or Puyol could fit in prime Barca without being exactly naturally gifted in these aspects. It's not like everyone needs Xavi level of game knowledge and passing skills to play Barca style, Ajax had a very impressive run with just a couple of outstanding players.
 

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
Sold Ronnie, Etoo, Gudi, Edmilson, Motta etc

Average height and strength dropped massively from Rijkaard to Pep.

For me, Pep would play with 10 David Silvas/Iniestas on a field if he would have them.
Midfielders, fullbacks, Cbs, pivots, wingers, attackers.

Motta was sold under Rijkaard not Pep.
Eto was replaced by a much taller Ibra. When Pep and Messi agreed that he moves to false 9 Villa made more sense. And it was a good move.


Edmilson was already finished and Yaya was already replacing him and he was taller than Ed. Busquets was promoted and he was taller than him too. Ronni was done, and Hleb was taller.
Gudi was decent back up, and again his replacement was tall man Keita.
Only time when we sacrificed height was when we got Mascherano, and then played him CB. But on the other hand he gave us athletic ability in CB which is essential for success of this team.
Again, the whole Pep didn't value height or athletic ability is a myth. And I don't blame anyone falling for it because he fool people with the way he talks.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I can not explain a level of ignorance while reading your post.
Do you know that feeling when you think that I don't understand tactics the way you do?
Well, now turn the tables.

You have all the brains you need to understand tactics. But you refuse to understand how quintessential they are to football. You simply don't give them the weight they demand as a football fan. You focus too much on stats, and names, and coincidences, without looking at what makes football a methodical, planned, and rather routine activity.

This is how I feel about you when you talk about psychology and physique.

I say: wtf 20 times while reading every post.

Pep's Barca had only two weapons.
Possession and counters.

See, it shows you don't know. Looking as how confusing you use the terms. Possession and counterattacking are like Animals and Mammals. Counterattacking is a specific and very big area in the huge possession chapter. So when you say Pep's Barca had only two weapons and name possession and counters, it's as if you say they had two weapons: firearms and riffles. That's the motherload of weapons to have :lol:.

Possession is roughly divided by positional play, and counterattacks. Plus transition phase when you get the ball back. In transition, you either go for a quick counter, or you recycle possession and opt for a longer, positional build-up. Pep's Barca were experts at both by ability and skill, known to be greatest at one, purely by choice. Meaning they acquired the quality to exercise both at the highest degree but chose to play more positional play because they felt like it and wanted to. It felt more rewarding probably to pass teams around and humiliate them. You have to respect a team that has reached a position where they can indulge themselves to such a degree.

We lacked the third weapon: height, crosses, and headers.
We lacked mental strength.

We won only because we were 200% better than the rest in technique.
But even then we struggled against bullies Chelsea 2009, Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012.

These are, indeed, weapons that can be used to gain advantages in various aspects of the game. But they are of lower importance. That's like comparing and making a logical connection between concepts such as Animal, Mammals, Height. Height is merely an attribute an animal can have without being decisive to its effectiveness, or ferociousness. It's simply an indicator of some sort.

Height, crosses, and headers. Let's look at this.

Height.
First, in the key positions where lack of height would bring problems, Barcelona under Pep, were not a short team. Positions in need of height are CB area, maybe DM area. 3-4 players at most need to be over 1.80 and close to 1.90. Let's see who did we have back then. Pique, Busi, Yaya, Keita, even Abidal. All had height.

Pique - 1.94. Busi - 1.89, Yaya - 1.88, Abidal - 1.86, Keita - 1.83. So, that's wrong.


Crosses & headers.
Crosses are generally one of the most uncontrolled ways to create chances, especially when abusing them. To have the ability to generate clear chances using other weapons, and, despite this, to bring the ball wide and pour crosses is dumb. Except for some rare cases, it's usually a fallback plan when something is stopping you from playing your normal game. Barca didn't need crossing. The same way a guy owning a Ferrari doesn't need a Lotus.

You can't go around and say the guy is an idiot because he doesn't have a Lotus. No. He has something of greater quality than a Lotus.

Also, you use crosses in the most ordinary way possible. If you are to look at the Barca games, we did use the crossing.

Let's take some key games. Chelsea 2009 goal of Iniesta comes after an Alves cross that Chelsea fail to clear well. In the final with United, again, Messi goal after a cross. In 2011, Messi scores vs Madrid on Bernabeu after a cross by Affelay. Versus Shakhtar in the previous round we scored quite a few goals through crosses. Vs Chelsea in 2012 at the infamous 2-2, Busi scores after a cross by Cuenca. Vs International (I think) in 2009 Messi scores the winner with his chest after a cross. Vs Madrid in 2009 Eto'o scores after a cross in the Clasico. In the 2-6, Puyol scores after a cross.

So, we have multiple goals after crosses in some of our best games. You only disregard those because they don't fit your "version" of what a cross is. When you say about crosses, you mean high balls in the box to a big pole "9" winning headers. So, basically, Barca had a big flaw because they didn't use crosses like David Moyes United. And, instead, had a much much much superior way of doing things with the ball.

Barca historically struggle against these bullies.
And we win only on rare occasions.
Not to mention that we have the highest paid team since always.

All attacking teams struggle more with good defensive sides than inferior attacking sides. It's a logical thing. If you are a rating a 10 as an offensive team, you'd much rather face a team that is rating 8 attacking at their best, and a 6 at defending, than a team that rates 8 at defending and 6 at attacking.

Match-ups are a thing in all sports on the planet. Only you try to make it a typical Pep Barca weakness.

When you sum up everything, Pep's style is far from perfect.
And it can win only in absolutely perfect cindiotions.
If conditions aren't perfect, there is almost no way to win in Europe with Barca DNA style.

It's not perfect, but it's a great vision, that builds on previous great visions from the past. And the base of Pep's style, taking out his highly perfectionistic and insane obsession, can be put to use by good, not great teams as well. As I've just shown you with Leipzig. Leipzig play a variant of Pep's game. So is Bayern.

So, Pep's style in terms of its ideology can be implemented in a lot of places. As it is happening.

Did you guys ever wonder why Barca wins in a CL only when we are absolutely the best in everything?
And why teams like RM and Germans often win during average seasons?

It's simple.
Our style can win only when absolutely everything is perfect.

Othet, more versatile styles can win in not so perfect conditions.

But you guys will figure that out in 5-10 years, don't worry.

Because Barcelona for a consistent portion of the modern era has developed a philosophy and an identity that is not part of the mainstream culture. Arguably, the failure of this club in recent history has been going around and trying to mimic Madrid's Galactico era.

Bayern don't win CL in average seasons. It's a complete myth. If anything, I've seen Bayern losing while being the better team than winning by being average and getting lucky. Not much different than us.

Only Madrid win CLs while playing poorly, in an average season. But they have a unique history in this competition, so they are a distinct case.
 
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BADGERBHOY

Senior Member
I can not explain a level of ignorance while reading your post.

Do you know that feeling when you think that I don't understand tactics the way you do?
Well, now turn the tables.
This is how I feel about you when you talk about psychology and physique.

I say: wtf 20 times while reading every post.

Pep's Barca had only two weapons.
Possession and counters.

We lacked the third weapon: height, crosses and headers.
We lacked mental strength.

We won only because we were 200% better than the rest in technique.
But even then we struggled against bullies Chelsea 2009, Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012.

Barca historically struggle against these bullies.
And we win only on rare occassions.
Not to mention that we have the highest paid team since always.

When you sum up everything, Pep's style is far from perfect.
And it can win only in absolutely perfect conditions.
If conditions aren't perfect, there is almost no way to win in Europe with Barca DNA style.

Did you guys ever wonder why Barca wins in a CL only when we are absolutely the best in everything?
And why teams like RM and Germans often win during average seasons?

It's simple.
Our style can win only when absolutely everything is perfect.

Other, more versatile styles can win in not so perfect conditions.

But you guys will figure that out in 5-10 years, don't worry.

Peps Barca lacked mental strength? Now I have seen everything. Those are the same players that dominated club football for 4 years and probably should have won the big one 4 years in a row, and were very unlucky not too. The spine of that team also dominated international football for those same 4 years and won everything in front of them. No matter what you say, Barcas' most successful style is the one implemented by Cruyff and Pep with movement and panache. We haven't played that style in years, mainly due to incompetence on the bench and in the boardroom. This has coincided with some of the most embarrassing results in our whole history.
 

BADGERBHOY

Senior Member
Athleticism and mental strength are fundamental to every style. Peps Barca got both as well for example, not in muscles but players could run both offensively and defensively. If you then add superior technique, football IQ and tactic and suddenly it's not too important anymore who would win in a 11 vs 11 fist fight. It's not like all CL winners are playing for headers with exclusively 1,90m tall physical beasts.

I don't understand how someone can watch this shitshow of football the team is presenting us for years now and then immediately think of stuff like headers or corners. Compared to other flaws of the team that is so unimportant, the team lacks fundamental parts not only of the Barca style but successful football in general.

You can play Barca style with some physicality mixed in. I mean it's not like we automatically can't have tall CBs, a strong DM and a real 9 as a striker etc. Historical teams also don't really matter for that, football is evolving and so should the style but keeping it's core alive should still be possible unless of course you elect a president who seems determined to destroy said style.

If we can't even remotely execute our own style there is no need to completely abandon it, or abandon it even more because let's face it a 4-4-2 with guys like Vidal, Rakitic, Paulinho etc and static forwards is already as far away from "Barca style" as any other team playing shit football.

Totally agree
 

BADGERBHOY

Senior Member
Sold Ronnie, Etoo, Gudi, Edmilson, Motta etc

Average height and strength dropped massively from Rijkaard to Pep.

For me, Pep would play with 10 David Silvas/Iniestas on a field if he would have them.
Midfielders, fullbacks, Cbs, pivots, wingers, attackers.

The only one of them that was a mistake was Etoo. As for your other comment, well that is just ignorant in the extreme.
 

serghei

Senior Member
It can be argued that mental strength is the reason why it is 2 and not 4.
Depends on how you look at it, but it isn't an outrageous claim.

No it can't. Unless you argue that it's mental strength that Liverpool failed vs Atletico. It was down to players on the night.

In sports, you lose. Muhammad Ali didn't have mental strength because he lost some fights? It's a flawed argument if you go down that road.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Serghei, about crosses.

Let's say it this way:
When Barca's winger has the ball, he can:
Pass it or shoot.

When Bayern's winger has the ball, he can:
Pass it, shoot or cross.

Why you go into extremes with crosses?
I am not asking for 50 crosses per match.
Look what Bayern was doing.
When they had the ball, they could pass, dribble, shoot or cross.
They had several options.

When Alba has the ball, what are his options?
To play a pass or to shoot, what he rarely does.

So, who is easier to stop?
Bayern's fullback or our guy?

About a low efficiency or crosses, that is a horseshit myth from Pep's era.

RM and Bayern are creating a chaos in the box everytime they cross to Cr7, Benz, Lewa or Muller.

A cross towards Muller/Benz or a cross towards Ansu/false 9 Messi.

Which one is more likely to create a chaos and a tap in after a loose ball?

Not to mention that you are unpredictable when you have more options.

When you watch Alba, Semedo, you know exactly where they'll pass to.
When Bayern's wingers had the ball, did you know what they'll do?
No.
They had so many different attacking options and our defense had to cover for 3-4 options in the same time.

Then, go back to Barca-Inter from 2010.
Mou actually left free space on flanks because he knew that we won't cross, or if we'll cross that nothing will happen.

Majority of opponents are leaving free space on flanks against us because nothing will happen.
And they just overcrowd the middle.

So, having only 2 attacking options instead of 3 will even lower the success of your 2 main options because you are prrdictable and easy to read.

But hey, it worked in 2011 before teams have figured us out.
Let's hope that the opponent's coaches have the IQ of 52 and let's try to sell the same shit 10 years later.

Crystal ball, crystall ball, what will be the outcome?

I love how you guys are devoted and unwilling to see the problems and patterns.

Just like our board.
 

serghei

Senior Member
We're talking now, or Pep's Barca? Because we've started about Pep's Barca. Barcelona back then had options to play in better ways than amass crosses. That's why they're called the best team of all time.

Right now crosses would help, if you had someone to score form them. Would be a quick and easy way to put the ball in the box. Still, it won't save us probably, because crossing is very likely to end up in lost possessions and even counters.
 
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Gaudi

Senior Member
Do you know bayern had most crosses ever with Pep at helm? City is using crosses as well..a lot. It's just that there is a difference between 90's type of crosses to a tall number 9 and todays. We don't cross because of simple fact we have noone to cross, not in a sence of height but basic body. Bayern attacks with full team, 4 players attacking the box, our movement means noone in the box.
So it' basics we lack, not crosses.
 

MTL_Barca

Well-known member
At the end of the day no team is perfect. I mean let's just look at current teams, who is the best? Liverpool? Bayern? City? They all have some more or less glaring weaknesses, and the back to back to back CL winners from Madrid were far from perfect as well. They would all get demolished by 2009-2011 Barca imo because despite maybe having more options they are weaker both offensively and defensively.

Simply arguing about options is pointless because it leaves out execution. No team can do everything perfectly and some pros will come with cons as well. Right now there often seems to be no plan at all, seriously sometimes i don't even know what the lineup/gameplan is supposed to achieve. We somehow managed to have no options AND execute them poorly.

I could understand that Barca DNA talk if we'd execute the style well but still lose. So let's say have a younger, faster squad but they are all small Puigs coached by Xavi jerking off to possession % statistics while we constantly get crushed by far stronger, more experienced teams via simple crosses and corners. But that's not the case, we play 4-4-2 with Suarez up front and Vidal/Roberto on the sides like come on no matter the style that just can't work :lol:

We need to seriously sort out the priorities here, first of all get out all the old, lazy bums and get a coach with an idea on how to play and then we can talk about missing crosses or something.
 
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serghei

Senior Member
Pep?s City and Bayern cross(ed) a lot. BBZ is stuck with his Barca version of Pep, whereas he evolved like most managers do.

He didn't evolve imo, which implies an improvement. He changed and tweaked his tactics to fit the possibilities of his current teams. Pep's best football is still 2011 Barca and will always be.
 

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