State of La Liga

[Barcafire]

Also, here's one more reason. Just thought of it.

I do agree that 20 million for each team a year won't 'all the sudden' make every team better. It's like the work my family does for 3rd world countries. Some countries we go to take advantage of our help and do very well. They are self sustaining now. While others squander the opportunities and miss out on their chance of getting out of poverty.

I see the same for leagues and their teams. Not every team will benefit from the extra income. Actually, most probably won't. Granted, more teams we can help, more we increase the chances of teams benefiting.

Anyway, the point isn't making every La Liga team awesome, it's about making 2-3 more better. Basically, the ones that seize the moments will progress, while the ones that squanders it through anyway reason will sink.

It all balances itself out eventually. But never through monopoly. That's why most countries have laws to prevent monopoly.

 

[Barcafire]

read all the previous conversation that we had. how is the 20m "extra" euros not going to increase the wage demands of a player and eventually, the whole team?

all of your suggestions are based off on fixed costs. and costs in football are never fixed because players and agents are greedy.

Ah pardon me. My bad.

 

[House of Flies]

+1000000

The biggest thing that separates Barca and Madrid from everyone else in La Liga is they get bailouts.

bailouts? they are still paying for it through loans. you both are assuming that its essentially free money that banks are offering them which is true to an extent because banks offer them huge sums regardless of their debt levels butttt one must also recognise that these two clubs have so much more assets so banks do think of them as a safer bit than villarreal.

barcelona and real still pay on their bad transfer through these loan repayments. furthermore, even teams like sevilla have squandered money on useless transfers- arouna kone was their most expensive transfer. similarly, valencia wasted money on renan, moya, tavano, fiore, corradi.

 

[El Gato]

I see there is a huge load of talk how equalling TV rights or making RM and Barca share their assets with the league won't fix the problem due to various factors eg. idiots running that clubs, but then, what would the sensible solution be? How do you make a project like La Liga become sustainable if you can't count on the teams spending the money given to them well and if you can't count on La Liga officials noticing how bad the organisation of this league is? You have to do something after all, but what...

 

[House of Flies]

I see there is a huge load of talk how equalling TV rights or making RM and Barca share their assets with the league won't fix the problem due to various factors eg. idiots running that clubs, but then, what would the sensible solution be? How do you make a project like La Liga become sustainable if you can't count on the teams spending the money given to them well and if you can't count on La Liga officials noticing how bad the organisation of this league is? You have to do something after all, but what...

again, read the conversation that irv and I had. first thing first, clubs need to improve their management. if the management is top notch then it attracts the right kind of investment aka Getafe and Malaga. Both had lowish debt levels which was highly manageable as compared to debt levels that EPL clubs have. Also fixed assets are worth more in Spain which is another attractive feature for an investor.

Why would an investor come in Spain? Simple as- you have to only pump upto a 60m cash in order to make a team CL ready. Look at Malaga again for this example, they have a squad that is capable for challenging for top 4 places. Getafe will do that after Team Dubai formally takes over. Compare that to how much money was pumped into City and Chelsea to make them into CL capable squads. The difference is huge and the returns are the same hence La Liga becomes an attractive option.

How do you improve management at a club? As Meta pointed out, clubs need to penalized for deferred payments/administration because fines are so ridiculously low in Spain and the opportunity cost of mismanagement is so low as compared to English. Presidents dont get checked for mismanagement of finances at all in Spain.

 

[El Gato]

I meant realistic applications, not something that has very low possibility of happening, because, as you say presidents and management bodies are not being considered a problem in Spain.

 

[Beast]

for me, it's not even about competitiveness anymore, but financial solvency.

but the thing is, even there, if you give these Presidents an extra 20m they'd still find a way to fuck it up.

they don't plan well enough, don't budget well enough, and don't market themselves well enough.

it's all so disorganised.

That's how is was from the old days and still is the case

Fantastic question. I'm not sure if I an answer, but I'm going to take a stab. Everyone, please feel free to prove me wrong. I'm sure there are a lot of holes in my answers.

1) 20 million more for each team can help pay wages, which would be one reason to help keep good players in La Liga. I'm not sure how players view leagues and wages, but I'm sure clubs not being able to pay for players, would stain my opinion about joining certain leagues.

2) If not wages, it can bring in a decent players every year to help build better squads. I'm sure this answer is full of holes. Please fire away.

3) Perhaps an extra 20 mill can be added on top of already existing transfer funds to help bring in better players?

4) Clubs can save small increments of the money to put towards later use such as for renovating facilities, training grounds, better staff, youth academies, uniforms (?), special events to build moral, promotion tours and advertisements to spread awareness for the club, etc.

5) I also could be wrong here, but I'm guessing this is an extra 20 mill on top of the profit most clubs already make. This might help lift the burden of only affording 1-2 decent players a year towards 2-3 good players a year, building a better team faster. But maybe the extra funds can help clubs put money towards 2 different things a year, such as purchasing players and upgrading facilities. All in all, just building a better club faster. I assume for some clubs, if it can't be build fast enough, they could loose their opportunity for growth and sink..

Anyway, just some ideas. I'm open to hear what others have to say. I'm sure a lot of my ideas could be killed in one swift punch of a proper data.

Oh yeh, and to back-up my main thought, "every little bit counts". It's not just about this extra 20 mill a year or TV revenue. I think the overall argument is about finding many ways to boosts La Liga. The boost has to start from somewhere. TV revenue is only one gold mine. I think teams in La Liga are just finding every possible way to help finance their team enough that they can become more competitive, even invest that money back into something else that can generate more money. (which i guess it's the team, lol)

Also, here's one more reason. Just thought of it.

I do agree that 20 million for each team a year won't 'all the sudden' make every team better. It's like the work my family does for 3rd world countries. Some countries we go to take advantage of our help and do very well. They are self sustaining now. While others squander the opportunities and miss out on their chance of getting out of poverty.

I see the same for leagues and their teams. Not every team will benefit from the extra income. Actually, most probably won't. Granted, more teams we can help, more we increase the chances of teams benefiting.

Anyway, the point isn't making every La Liga team awesome, it's about making 2-3 more better. Basically, the ones that seize the moments will progress, while the ones that squanders it through anyway reason will sink.

It all balances itself out eventually. But never through monopoly. That's why most countries have laws to prevent monopoly.

thanks for taking the time to answer , thing is even with 20 Mil increase they will still be competing against clubs who still make 5 times if not more there budget
to make it simple if you are a medium level player would you move to Malaga or Real Madrid or Osasuna ? if you were offered all three clubs ?
Some of those clubs had money before (Seville , Deportivo, Valencia,Atletico Madrid..etc ) and spent it all away without any concern about tomorrow
Seville made bundles out of selling Baptista,Ramos,Reyes,Alves ..etc and road their luck when their president thought he was the alpha and omega and that the manager didn't matter but his shrewd sense of business the end was mediocre players transforming Seville from a contender to a team that struggle for CL qualification
Do you think Real or Barca scouted Alves, Ramos ,Baptista ? the answer is no we look somewhere else for a more risk free product so we are not buying from the same shop we go to Armani they go to Gap .. so having 20 or 30 Mil won't affect them one bit except one matter , Del Nido will pay his personal debts
When he had the money from those players who did he buy ? ... I'm sorry but i believe a guy who get 36 Million for Alves, 27 for Ramos and 29 for Baptista should not talk about dire financial state , he kept spending half the money of dudes and the rest in his pocket figuring he will reach the CL every year.. when he lost that he started to cry foul play... almost everyone was begging him to hire a proper manager but he was so skint he opted for the cheapest to keep his money in the bank untouched and suddenly Seville lost all it's glamour
Without the state of Real , Barca, United ..etc players like Roman Riquelme and Forlan wouldn't bother with Villarreal .. they were outcasts from rich clubs which allowed a shrewd manager & club president to get them almost for free, from the dawn of football and before the TV rights there was the rich clubs and poor clubs .. United ,Real & Barca didn't strike it rich in the last 10 years
Deportivo had the money plenty of money but like a normal Spanish club they wasted it on stalking his club with high wages and at the end he couldn't pay his debts or buy players Do you think it's Real & Barca fault ? the club doesn't have plenty of supporters so why do the Italian thing of having 10 Euro for lunch so you go and buy a bottle of wine to keep appearances ?
Who topped the record of highest paid amount in the world in the mid 90's for a player? it wasn't Real , Barca, United , Inter , Milan.. it was freaking Real Betis on Denilson ..
Now when they cry foul play people tell them to shove it
Valencia was spending like crazy.. the same level as Real & Barca + building a new stadium something both of our clubs didn't bother to pull .. Valenica and Atletico problems are not about not being able to pay wages or players it's about paying for their old mistakes .. in a way it's a blessing in disguise without the current situation Valencia wouldn't be managed as healthy as it is now.. it would still be Soler probably paying 50 Million for Neymar and hiring Van Basten for two weeks than paying 10 Mil a year for Van Gaal or any of his usual shit
Who is doing better in terms of what they have and what they did with it ? it won't be Villarreal , Seville or Atletico .. it's Getafe who have 15 K stadium (or something ) and it's always half full , he knows he doesn't have the wages to buy big so he invested in ambitious managers and outcast youth players who want to prove themselves and even though most of these players left 1 year -2 year later he always managed to bring other players.. Angel Lopez biggest mistake in the last 10 years was actually hiring Michel who screwed Getafe but this a club you would actually give them an extra 20 Mil and you can be sure he won't spend them on a player.. but several upcoming players
You know why the problem happened for small promoted clubs ? they get promoted and start buying players from outside and neglect those who took them there it happened before with Levante it happened last year with Hercules , Mallorca is trying to clear their debt and to do that you need to sell stars/high wages and buy cheap gems while maintaining to have a good manager
Those 2-3 teams that should be better only Valencia is doing the right thing , Atletico acts like nothing is happening to them .. they sell Aguero they spend it all on Falcao
Is that a club would do better with 20 Million more ? will the fair TV deal tell them hey you are up to your necks in debts you should be selling Aguero and buying the likes of Nolito and Morata for 1/10 of the price ? Atletico Madrid is a typical Spanish president's narcissism syndrome

My friend the problem is in the people not the money you need more Angel Lopez and less Del Nido and Gill

 

[La Furia]

Getafe as the model to follow.

Not every club can fill the niche market as Real Madrid's official feeder club. Credit to Getafe for filling a niche despite not having a fanbase, but Getafe's results over the years have been far from impressive even before Michel.

If your fantasy of a superior La Liga is to fill the league with development clubs, we might as well let Barca B, C, Castilla and Real Madrid C into the league, kill the illusion that it's a nation wide competition and that it really is just a feud between two rival corporations, and have Barca and Madrid play their own youth teams every week that isn't a clasico.

 

[Metaphysical]

That's how is was from the old days and still is the case

I know.

but those who don't understand (especially those in England) like to blame Barcelona and Real Madrid for hogging all the TV money.



the biggest problem, as Sid Lowe often says, is that Administration carries no sporting penalty. so for these chairmen, there's no incentive to try and remain financially solvent, so why go to the extra effort to make sure they do? if the LFP make Administration carry, say, a 10-15 point penalty. you can bet these chairmen wouldn't be so slack with their money.

plus the lack of marketing nous is crippling. how do so many clubs not have shirt sponsors? how are they bringing in such small amounts of commercial revenue apart from the TV deals? if they got their act together, as we did when Laporta took over, they'd all be in a much better position.

 

[oz187]

pick any of the following clubs :
Sporting Gijon,Osasuna,Villarreal,Seville,Atletico Madrid,Betis
give them 20 Million more on what they are earning and tell me what this will do to the competitiveness of la liga
If those 20 Million will make any of them compete with the current Real & Barca for honors i'm all for it...but please show me how it will

That could make a significant difference. That would pay the wages and transfer fee of 2 or 3 quality players. Let's say you buy a player on a 5 year contract for 20M euros paying him 3M per year, That is 4M per year on the transfer fee and 3M on the wages coming to a total of 7M. So 3 players would be 21M euros. And after 5 years the player would only cost you wages as the transfer fee would have been paid off(although any contract renewals may come with some wage increase). Of course if teams have more money there could be an inflationary effect, but in that case it again comes back to good management.

 

[Beast]

Getafe as the model to follow.

Not every club can fill the niche market as Real Madrid's official feeder club. Credit to Getafe for filling a niche despite not having a fanbase, but Getafe's results over the years have been far from impressive even before Michel.

If your fantasy of a superior La Liga is to fill the league with development clubs, we might as well let Barca B, C, Castilla and Real Madrid C into the league, kill the illusion that it's a nation wide competition and that it really is just a feud between two rival corporations, and have Barca and Madrid play their own youth teams every week that isn't a clasico.

Without hesitation , Getafe is the best example to follow in la liga hands down they never overspent and reached as far as any club would dream of doing with proper management
and in case you didn't notice the highest number of NICHE Madrid players is in Valencia... now go and meditate on that it's your precious Valencia not Getafe
So If anyone deserve the title Madrid C it's actually Valencia...

I know.

but those who don't understand (especially those in England) like to blame Barcelona and Real Madrid for hogging all the TV money.



the biggest problem, as Sid Lowe often says, is that Administration carries no sporting penalty. so for these chairmen, there's no incentive to try and remain financially solvent, so why go to the extra effort to make sure they do? if the LFP make Administration carry, say, a 10-15 point penalty. you can bet these chairmen wouldn't be so slack with their money.

plus the lack of marketing nous is crippling. how do so many clubs not have shirt sponsors? how are they bringing in such small amounts of commercial revenue apart from the TV deals? if they got their act together, as we did when Laporta took over, they'd all be in a much better position.

Agree Meta

That could make a significant difference. That would pay the wages and transfer fee of 2 or 3 quality players. Let's say you buy a player on a 5 year contract for 20M euros paying him 3M per year, That is 4M per year on the transfer fee and 3M on the wages coming to a total of 7M. So 3 players would be 21M euros. And after 5 years the player would only cost you wages as the transfer fee would have been paid off(although any contract renewals may come with some wage increase). Of course if teams have more money there could be an inflationary effect, but in that case it again comes back to good management.

So who is this Diego Maradona who will make them competitive ? it's 20 Mil gone for the player and 3 Mil each year since his high wage would cripple their budget which means they have 17 for next year to buy another one player than 14..etc... with the same figures you made by the time the 5 years are over the clubs will be back in debt
and of course the other players will demand a wage increase..etc
Your solution means you want to eat so i give you a fish to eat.. i'd rather you learn how to fish and i'll give you the fishing rod instead of feeding you today and you will be hungry tomorrow
Forget to add respect to Espanyol for being another smart club in the market

 

[Deco 20]

The only reason Getafe has the right to survive is their management ( and Guardado).

No history, no fans...

... but their commercials are epic

Expecting them to have a new shirt sponsor next year: Taco Bell or Pizza Hut

 

[El Gato]

Del Nido has called up an open meeting with all other presidents excluding Rossell and Perez. Majority confirmed attendance. Their aim is to sign a single contract for all the league to split the money evenly, but they all need to commit for a chance of making it happen.

 

[Richard.H]

The only reason Getafe has the right to survive is their management ( and Guardado).

No history, no fans...

... but their commercials are epic

Expecting them to have a new shirt sponsor next year: Taco Bell or Pizza Hut

There's a Taco Bell in Spain? Damn I never knew that.

 

[oz187]

So who is this Diego Maradona who will make them competitive ? it's 20 Mil gone for the player and 3 Mil each year since his high wage would cripple their budget which means they have 17 for next year to buy another one player than 14..etc... with the same figures you made by the time the 5 years are over the clubs will be back in debt
and of course the other players will demand a wage increase..etc

It's not about buying a Maradona to win you the league. It's not even about becoming competitive within a year. It's about becoming competitive over a period of time and being able to maintain competitiveness.

So to give an example:
First season club has 20M increase in budget. They buy a player for 20M euros to be paid in 3 installments. 12M upfront, and 4M the next 2 seasons. 3M wages. They end the season with slightly better performances because of the player and 5M in the bank; 20M(budget increase)-12M(first installment)-3M(wages increase)

Second season club has 25M increase in budget(5M saved from last year). They buy another player for 20M euros to be paid in 3 installments. 12M upfront, and 4M the next 2 seasons. 3M wages. They end the season with even better performances because of the players and 3M in the bank; 20M(budget increase)+5M(saved from last year)-12M(first installment)-4M(second installment)-6M(wages increase)

Third season club has 23M increase in budget(3M saved from last year). They buy another player for 20M euros to be paid in 3 installments. 6M upfront, and 7M the next 2 seasons. 3M wages. They end the season with even better performances because of the 3 extra players but with the same money in the bank.
20M(budget increase)+3M(saved from last year)-6M(first installment)-4M(second installment)-4M(third installment)-9M(wages increase)

Fourth season club hires Sandro Rose as president after he failed to be releected as Barca president. Rosell says that fiscal responsibility is needed and says no more transfers this season.Club has has 20M increase in budget. They end the season with similar performance to last season because of the players and the same money in the bank; 20M(budget increase)-4M(third installment)-7M(second installment)-9M(wages increase)

Fifth season club has 20M increase in budget. They end the season with similar performances because of the 3 extra players with the 4M extra in the bank. 20M(budget increase)-7M(third installment)-9M(wages increase). But now they have have total ownership of the players.

Of course reality has adjusting factors. There is probability for wage and transfer fee inflation, but that really comes down to clubs being managed responsibly(and of course the league needs to put in proper rules to help enable this). However reality is also better because these examples assume the squad increases. In reality they clubs would buy these players to replace ones they already have so you could deduct their wages and transfer fees. Also clubs could use the money to hold onto players they already have rather than shelling out transfer fees.