Thiago Translantara

[JamDav1982]

Verratti, you're probably right. Quite a similar case to Thiago, except Thiago is injured a lot more. Pogba no. Better than Thiago, with better career, better performances in important games (including on Bernabeu in the CL semifinal where he played excellent in the 2nd half), now he's by far United's best player, even though Mourinho's tactics are shit.

Pogba has been nowhere near world class at United and that game v Real he was not good if it is one he scored or assisted with a header.

They are still struggling to work out his best position but has some great games/moments.

 

[JamDav1982]

I think that's the strongest point to be made here. Thiago's defensive capabilities enable room for player of similar calibre. You could perfectly pair him up with players with similar strengths like Pogba or Verratti (just theoretic examples). Players are capable of offensively and defensively. Basically distributing offensive and defensive duties 50-50 and having playmaking influences from 2 players instead of one. With Coutinho that'd be too offensively. You'd pair him up with a defensive workhorse and everyone on that forum would make a meme out of him when it turns out that he has the first touch of a walruss.

Which is why wouldnt pair Coutinho up with same players.

Just as some midields with Thiago and two others would miss some attacking ability which Coutinho would bring.

Works both ways.

 

[Yannik]

Which is why wouldnt pair Coutinho up with same players.

Just as some midields with Thiago and two others would miss some attacking ability which Coutinho would bring.

Works both ways.

Yet 2 No. 8s with playmaking abilities can actually compensate the disadvantages of not having a more advanced attacking midfielder. I also think that the playmaker role upfront is already occupied by Messi and it would make more sense to distribute it deeper down the pitch, like when Xavi and Iniesta did it.

 

[gasgas]

Or verratti who I have never seen a have a great game against a top team if that is the measure of WC

You weren't watching him play when his team trumped us 4-0? Even in the second game Verratti is the one who provided the throughballs for Di Maria, Cavani who missed 1 on 1, and it was his pass that led to Cavani's goal
Or when his team played with 10 men vs Chelsea and managed to end the game 2-2 going through on away goals?

 

[JamDav1982]

Yet 2 No. 8s with playmaking abilities can actually compensate the disadvantages of not having a more advanced attacking midfielder. I also think that the playmaker role upfront is already occupied by Messi and it would make more sense to distribute it further down the pitch, like when Xavi and Iniesta did it.

Iniesta played more of an AM role than Xavi back then and Coutinho is being bought due to his versatility to play so many positions as such a high level and will be a very good CM if called upon to do it.

Just as two more balanced CMs can work so to can one more attacking one as has been shown time and again.

Also that prime Xavi and Iniesta managed to do what Thiago does while demolishing him on goals/assists for most part so was not same need.

Pair Thiago and Verratti and you dont get that and lack something going forward.

 

[DonAndres]

This is also a great point. Serie A until this season been a one man league and Pogba had Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal beside him. Never had a dominant performance for Juve in the CL either. He's been good, but not truly great.

Also had a lackluster chokejob of a Euro where he didn't produce any significant performances and got outshone by bloody Sissoko in the final, taking a fat L to a weak Portugal side to lose it all.

Verratti, you're probably right. Quite a similar case to Thiago, except Thiago is injured a lot more. Pogba no. Better than Thiago, with better career, better performances in important games (including on Bernabeu in the CL semifinal where he played excellent in the 2nd half), now he's by far United's best player, even though Mourinho's tactics are shit.

Man I've watched that match and comps of that semi a number of times because of all the claims that Pogba supposedly excelled there . His involvement was not high at all, had a number of frankly amateurish turnovers and dumb decisions looking at it now, and his assist was a scrappy header in the box that was very lucky to ever end up in a goal. No other world class player would ever pull out a performance like that and then have it be used as some sort of career defining iconic performance for praise.

Looking again at Thiago's performance vs Barca in the 2nd leg semi, that was actually LOADS better than Pogba vs RM (a worse team than 14/15 Barca) yet didn't get half the hype. People actually tried to tell me Pogba played well against us in the final too even though he was hardly even noticeable or relavent .

And how do you explain his completely vanilla Euro-2016 showing? Don't complain about tactics and then shut down any complaints about Thiago's fitness/injuries. You say he's the best player on a shitty tactics United team right now but I could have said the same for Thiago at Bayern under Ancelotti in 16/17. And he was performing much better then than Pogba is now, as a top 5 statistical player in Europe.

 

[JamDav1982]

Pogba was blatantly not fit in that Real game though.

Can remember it being discussed on here but to say he was good is stretching it.

Thiago v Barca in 2nd leg was nothing all that impressive.

Lucho went for keeping three up top and giving ball to Bayern knowing one break and goal and tie was done.

 

[Yannik]

Also that prime Xavi and Iniesta managed to do what Thiago does while demolishing him on goals/assists for most part so was not same need.

Thiago averages a goal or assist every 223 minute at Bayern. Iniesta and Xavi are sitting at 230 and 231 respectively for Barca. I don't even think that's a big talking point, they are/were all balanced No. 8s, none of them was a stat padding machine.

 

[JamDav1982]

Thiago averages a goal or assist every 223 minute at Bayern. Iniesta and Xavi are sitting at 230 and 231 respectively. I don't even think that's a big talking point, they are/were all balanced No. 8s, none of them was a stat padding machine.

Xavi and Iniesta in their prime Barca years under Pep when they were paired were getting goals/assists at a rate Thiago has not ever come close to.

Peps first season they got 15 goals and 46 assists between them.

Thiago and Verratti wouldnt get close as I said.

 

[DonAndres]

Pogba was blatantly not fit in that Real game though.

Can remember it being discussed on here but to say he was good is stretching it.

Thiago v Barca in 2nd leg was nothing all that impressive.

Lucho went for keeping three up top and giving ball to Bayern knowing one break and goal and tie was done.

He dictated the tempo of the game extremely well, had so many passes between lines and long/chipped passes accurately transitioning the ball wherever he wanted. He created a superb chance for Muller with a through ball, had a crazy run and shot that led to Lewa's goal line chance saved by MATS, and a couple of other decent chances created. High activity, high number of actions, etc.

I'm not even saying it was a brilliant performance, but if Pogba had done 1/3 of that performance at the time and only created some shitty deflected key pass he would've gotten hyped up by the bucketloads for it. It was insane how much credit he got for doing so little.

That has changed and I think he stepped it up much more at United to actually back it up with great all-round performances, but he used to be inflated by crazy hype levels.

 

[JamDav1982]

He had all the freedom in world to do it though and Barca basically chose to have it that way and gamble on one goal so not all that impressive.

When he really needed to turn up was game before and he was poor.

I like Thiago and think he is great player just needs to have more impact on biggest games.

Wouldnt complain at all if he came back to Barca.

Pogba is a strange one can be dominant or look lost.

 

[Yannik]

Xavi and Iniesta in their prime Barca years under Pep when they were paired were getting goals/assists at a rate Thiago has not ever come close to.

Peps first season they got 15 goals and 46 assists between them.

Thiago and Verratti wouldnt get close as I said.

But goals are distributed between the team, the most important factor would be how much the overall goal count would increase/decrease, not who scored them. Thiago operates deep on the pitch and Bayern ever since Pep scoretheir goals mainly from attacks on the wings, he isn't gonna be the guy racking up assists or goals, he mainly distributes the ball to those that do. Modric and Kroos in their prime have also not been great stat makers, the majority of them came from Kroos' set pieces.. I think that CMs should not be rated on direct goal participation as much as pure attacking mids, strikers or wingers should.

 

[serghei]

Also had a lackluster chokejob of a Euro where he didn't produce any significant performances and got outshone by bloody Sissoko in the final, taking a fat L to a weak Portugal side to lose it all.



Man I've watched that match and comps of that semi a number of times because of all the claims that Pogba supposedly excelled there . His involvement was not high at all, had a number of frankly amateurish turnovers and dumb decisions looking at it now, and his assist was a scrappy header in the box that was very lucky to ever end up in a goal. No other world class player would ever pull out a performance like that and then have it be used as some sort of career defining iconic performance for praise.

Looking again at Thiago's performance vs Barca in the 2nd leg semi, that was actually LOADS better than Pogba vs RM (a worse team than 14/15 Barca) yet didn't get half the hype. People actually tried to tell me Pogba played well against us in the final too even though he was hardly even noticeable or relavent .

And how do you explain his completely vanilla Euro-2016 showing? Don't complain about tactics and then shut down any complaints about Thiago's fitness/injuries. You say he's the best player on a shitty tactics United team right now but I could have said the same for Thiago at Bayern under Ancelotti in 16/17. And he was performing much better then than Pogba is now, as a top 5 statistical player in Europe.

It was a good performance from Pogba and he was very important in Juve advancing. Thiago was one of the worst players from Bayern in the 0-3 vs Barca. He did play very well in the return leg, but the pressure was way less, since the tie was decided in the first leg. Of course, with two very different players like Pogba and Thiago you can have many different opinions, and in truth you're right in the sense that Pogba, for the world class player that he is considered by many, doesn't have that many great performances in big games.

 

[JamDav1982]

But goals are distributed between the team, the most important factor would be how much the overall goal count would increase/decrease, not who scored them. Thiago operates deep on the pitch and Bayern ever since Pep scoretheir goals mainly from attacks on the wings, he isn't gonna be the guy racking up assists or goals, he mainly distributes the ball to those that do. Modric and Kroos in their prime have also not been great stat makers, the majority of them came from Kroos' set pieces.. I think that CMs should not be rated on direct goal participation.

The goals/assists in that team would not have been matched by likes of Thiago and Veratti though so comparison not really relevant to that side.

Basically there is a load of different ways a team can be set up to get those goals/assists.

Modric and Kroos have basically been in a 4-4-2 for a lot of those CL wins as well. Isco was added to the midfield central area last season for example to give them more atacking edge which they lacked a bit from midfield.

Even the Ancelotti win Di Maria virtually played in CM for that run to give them more from midfield which they lacked a bit.

No one is rating midfielders on goal contribution but it is easier to play with more 'no 8' types if they give that goal/assist production and nothing lacking on that side of it.

 

[BBZ8800]

Thiago matches most of Coutinho's offensive qualities besides pace and long distance shooting. Look at this games vs Arsenal where he was used CAM. Even actually outdoes Coutinho in technique, playmaking and passing. The fact that Thiago is otherwise defensively usable and even plays great games at DM for Bayern is not meant as a suggestion to actually use him defensively, but means that you can pair him up with someone that isn't just a hard working shithouse, but add another actual offensive player. And what is better than one midfielder with ball playing qualities? 2 midfielders with ball playing qualities.

Imo, Coutinho is Messi compared to Thiago attacking wise.
Coutinho is a true wizzard in attack.

Further, about comments from other people how we should play Coutinho-Thiago-Busquets midfield and how people are getting wet, lol.

So, under EV, we managed to create a team which has clean sheets in 80% of matches, people would suddenly throw all that sway and let's try to copy again Xavi-Iniesta era (which isn't working for years, lol).
For those who will reply: but Real had Xavi-Iniesta-esque team. Lol, they didn't. They had physically STRONGER and faster midfielders, plus attackers who can score both with feet and head, unlike our attackers and midfielders.

So, one more time, Real evolved Xavi-Iniesta midfield into strong+fast+techical midfield plus strong+fast+technical forwards, who can score from an open play, from crosses, from free kicks.
And then we have Barca's fans, who are trying to ignore that fact and who would like to go back to: LET'S GO BACK TO short Xavi-Iniesta type of players with short Messi-Griezmann and similar players in attack.
Yeah, sounds awesome.
I can predict lots of defeats against AM, Juve, Bayern and Psg in CL knockout matches for that short and technical team.

So, since we are buying Coutinho, our team will already be slightly weaker and shorter in defense than now.
Call me crazy, but I would rather play Coutinho-Rakitic-Busi than Cou (171 cm)-Thiago (174 cm)-Busi against Juve or Psg.

There is a reason why Barca's teams for the last 20 years looked like children whenever we played against physical teams.

Also, people are too obsessed with possession and domination.
Imo, if we had Coutinho available for a CL, our team would be a clear favorite to win it. With Messi-Cou and even guys like Raki and Paulinho behind them.

THIS IS NOT 2009' anymore.
Short technical players won't win CLs ever again.
Unless if their team has evolved in strength+pace in midfield and in strength+pace+scoring both with feet&head in attack.

But let's ignore this one more time and try with short technical players for the 100th time in a row and hope for a different result against AM, AM, Juve, PSG this time.
Good luck with that.