Why are people so obsessed with the Champions League?

[Givenchy]

Ok, you are a coach.
You have a current team and even add Griezmann.
You play against AM in a CL quarters.
They will play a physical match with lots of fouls, park 2 buses around their box and try to score on counters and set pieces.

How would you set a team?
No matter what you do, they will park the bus and we have a no plan B with a current set of players.
We will just pass around the box till death and do nothing and every ball will go to Messi who will be man-marked by 4 defenders.

Messi needs to decide where hes playing as the free-role is no longer working, hes man-marked regardless, we have our most dangerous player dropping deep congesting the midfield. we needed 1 goal vs Roma and I'm seeing Leo collecting the ball near Semedo at RB, its fucking stupid.

I'd like to see us go back to a 433

--------------MaTS
Semedo-Pique-Umtiti-Alba
---------------Busi
----------Raki-Coutinho
-Griezmann-Messi-Dembele

drop Suarez, sell if possible and bring in a ST like Dzeko as a plan B who probably wouldn't mind sitting on the bench, infact we could give him the Copa games. people will probably laugh at me suggesting him but if we had a player like that we have another dimension.

i still think we need an engine in midfield as Raki and Busi aren't getting any younger and they were never blessed with pace

 

[snowy]

That's a nice plan and all. But it's Barca in a nutshell. And what happens then? We are knocked out.

Not everyone is nice like Pep or Lucho or Paco Jemez, there are tough guys out there like Mourinho, Simeone who'll kill you on counters.

Winning CL Barca way should count twice. It's such a huge achievement.

With current squad, yes, not with the type I'm suggesting.
See point number 4 Joan

Barca Mach3 brah! no team will be fast enough to beat us on counters. + if they double park, we'd always have triple the players they'd have on our end of the pitch. Double parking would actually be their worst strategy. We'll keep assaulting them till their walls crumble and send their bus to the junkyard. They'd get so overwhelmed with our non-stop blitz of shots at goal, fouls drawn leading to free kicks and penalties that they'll quickly open up and that would mean new lanes of coring for our creative new signings.

The best strategy a team would have is to go full on attack and beat us on the offensive. Game on!

See ya guys on the other side... Off to Portugal Visca B and GL @ the Clasico! let's crush'em

 

[BBZ8800]

We are truly too one-dimensional. BBZ, in the post-Messi era, are you proposing that we scrap the so-called "Barca way" (possession-heavy, short-pass driven, ground-hugging etc.) and go for things like crosses, headers, long range shots etc.? As Plan A or Plan B? Just wanted to hear your thoughts.

Well, yes, I would move away at least slightly from Pep's way.
Because there is:
1. Barca's way
2. and Pep's way

Barca's way was always possession based, technical, attacking and beautiful football.
But pre-Pep, there were a lot of times when we used to score after corners, crosses, long shots and similar, for example in Van Gaal's or Rijkaard's eras.
Then came Pep and he went into extremes.
His style worked for one short period and then crashed.

Also, people need to realize that there are 2 worlds:
1. one is La liga, with a lot of weaker teams
2. and the other one is a CL with big European teams

What we have learned in post-Pep's era is:
1. in La liga, Barca's style is usually good enough, but it remains to be seen whether OUR FOOTBALL in general is good for La liga or it was because of Messi.
There is a high chance that after Messi we will just turn into Arsenal in La Liga: a team who plays well, but in general is sterile and not too efficient.
Or, if our style will be fine for La Liga after Messi=awesome.
2. the other world is a CL. After Pep, we can see that usually counterattacking teams are winning a CL. Possession based football is not a way to go there.
Also, teams like Real, Bayern, Juve, AM are more successful than us lately with their physical play, counters, set pieces, crosses and SOME possession football.

I have read a few times that people are bored when I post videos from the past, but for example, look at this, Rijkaard's season 2004/05, when we returned to life and won first La Liga after a few years (we will win a CL in the next year).
Our attack: Ronaldinho-Etoo-Guily:
Fast-Fast-Fast. So, 3 fast guys in attack, you can play both possession football and counters.
Further, the same as Real, if we can't create anything through the middle, we could have crossed:
Ronaldinho somewhat tall and strong, Etoo tall and strong, plus Larsson on the bench who scored 100+ goals with headers for Celtic.
So, as a plan B, we had 3 strong guys in attack and all 3 could have scored after crosses, just like RM today with CR7, Benz, Bale.
So, no matter how you twist it, we turned into: way shorter team after Pep, and into way slower team after Pep, and into a team who depends only on Mess plus we have no Plan B.
Also, our players were trying way more longshots back then, we were scoring after corners, ALL players were trying shots from all positions (we didn't have to pass every single ball to Messi).

So, yes, our team is screwed on so many levels currently.

So, anyway, look a video now and see:
1. how many more counters we played back then
2. how many goals were scored after crosses etc
3. goals after set pieces
4. long range shots, which we also lack today in a Pep's-possession-based football
5. different players attempting shots

We lack almost everything of that today.
Our football is: play only 1 style: pass till death around the box and look for Messi at the end of every action.
Quite predictable, onedimensional and sterile.

** Look at some of our goals, after some crosses, there is always a havoc in opponent's box. They don't know how to clear the danger and we scored lots of easy goals in RM's way:
We cross, teams don't know how to defend, and we score easy headers or easy tap ins after crosses.
When was the last time when this happened in a current era?

So, yes, we will need some changes in the page.
I am not saying that we should turn into Stoke.
But if we currently play:
90% possession
10% everything else

In the future, we should turn to:
70% possession
30% counters and crosses
We will still be a possession based team, but closer to RM, Bayern, German NT team, Rijkaard's Barca, Van Gaal's Barca etc.
Pep's thing is not working in a CL anymore.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Well, yes, I would move away at least slightly from Pep's way.
Because there is:
1. Barca's way
2. and Pep's way

Barca's way was always possession based, technical, attacking and beautiful football.
But pre-Pep, there were a lot of times when we used to score after corners, crosses, long shots and similar, for example in Van Gaal's or Rijkaard's eras.
Then came Pep and he went into extremes.
His style worked for one short period and then crashed.

Also, people need to realize that there are 2 worlds:
1. one is La liga, with a lot of weaker teams
2. and the other one is a CL with big European teams

What we have learned in post-Pep's era is:
1. in La liga, Barca's style is usually good enough, but it remains to be seen whether OUR FOOTBALL in general is good for La liga or it was because of Messi.
There is a high chance that after Messi we will just turn into Arsenal in La Liga: a team who plays well, but in general is sterile and not too efficient.
Or, if our style will be fine for La Liga after Messi=awesome.
2. the other world is a CL. After Pep, we can see that usually counterattacking teams are winning a CL. Possession based football is not a way to go there.
Also, teams like Real, Bayern, Juve, AM are more successful than us lately with their physical play, counters, set pieces, crosses and SOME possession football.

I have read a few times that people are bored when I post videos from the past, but for example, look at this, Rijkaard's season 2004/05, when we returned to life and won first La Liga after a few years (we will win a CL in the next year).
Our attack: Ronaldinho-Etoo-Guily:
Fast-Fast-Fast. So, 3 fast guys in attack, you can play both possession football and counters.
Further, the same as Real, if we can't create anything through the middle, we could have crossed:
Ronaldinho somewhat tall and strong, Etoo tall and strong, plus Larsson on the bench who scored 100+ goals with headers for Celtic.
So, as a plan B, we had 3 strong guys in attack and all 3 could have scored after crosses, just like RM today with CR7, Benz, Bale.
So, no matter how you twist it, we turned into: way shorter team after Pep, and into way slower team after Pep, and into a team who depends only on Mess plus we have no Plan B.
Also, our players were trying way more longshots back then, we were scoring after corners, ALL players were trying shots from all positions (we didn't have to pass every single ball to Messi).

So, yes, our team is screwed on so many levels currently.

So, anyway, look a video now and see:
1. how many more counters we played back then
2. how many goals were scored after crosses etc
3. goals after set pieces
4. long range shots, which we also lack today in a Pep's-possession-based football
5. different players attempting shots

We lack almost everything of that today.
Our football is: play only 1 style: pass till death around the box and look for Messi at the end of every action.
Quite predictable, onedimensional and sterile.

** Look at some of our goals, after some crosses, there is always a havoc in opponent's box. They don't know how to clear the danger and we scored lots of easy goals in RM's way:
We cross, teams don't know how to defend, and we score easy headers or easy tap ins after crosses.
When was the last time when this happened in a current era?

So, yes, we will need some changes in the page.
I am not saying that we should turn into Stoke.
But if we currently play:
90% possession
10% everything else

In the future, we should turn to:
70% possession
30% counters and crosses
We will still be a possession based team, but closer to RM, Bayern, German NT team, Rijkaard's Barca, Van Gaal's Barca etc.
Pep's thing is not working in a CL anymore.

I think our success under Guardiola was the culmination of the right approach that fits the physiques and characteristics of the players and having the right players such as Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Messi who were extremely good with their feet. We were good because not only did we have possession, we took great advantage of the possession we had by constantly moving off the ball, interchanging positions, creating space and opportunities for ourselves. Also that was the best way to defend as Guardiola's philosophy was we wanted to deny our opponent's chance to have the ball as much as possible, we also pressed intensively. Even those we did not have a Plan B either (at least I didn't think so), our Plan A was executed almost impeccably most of the time.

Nowadays, gone was the diligent and fluid off the ball movement and quick passes, our players are as static as hell and move as slow as a snail, the few opportunities there are were gone by the time we started doing anything, because the opponent has had enough time to close down any space. I don't know why and how we became this way (the core players got older?) but I can't help thinking that if had remained that way we probably could still snatch one or two more CL's in the past few years, even without a Plan B. I think Guardiola's way is not wrong or obsolete by any means, it was us who has deviated from that way many moons ago. To me Guardiola's way's biggest pitfall is the lack of effective remedies for counters, but that problem is not just confined to us and Bayern in the past and City right now, many teams are struggling to deal with that too. I guess what I am saying is Guardiola's way is still effective IF it is executed correctly, even in the CL (we will see how City does in the CL in the coming seasons) and we have veered off from that way a long time ago and our lack of success in the recent years in the CL should not be pinned on that.

I wholeheartedly agree that we should have a Plan B now that our Plan A doesn't work very well not only against elite teams but many La Liga teams, especially given we don't have a robust midfield to support Plan A in the first place. We should definitely try to look at options such as long range shots (we already have Coutinho and Rakitic who are somewhat good at it), crosses, headers and set pieces etc (the question is where to find the players suitable for this. You previously mentioned players who are both good with their feet and their heads, but these players are very hard to find, aren't they? Usually players who are good in the air are taller and more physical, but this type of players are not that great with their feet normally. Also, if we buy someone who is good at headers only, do we put that player on the bench most of the time and only play him when we execute Plan B? He might not want to come if that is the case. Or do we put him on the field just for set pieces?). To me we should have a Plan B, at the same time we should also retool our Plan A to have more off the ball movement, to become much more quicker in the build up, quicker in unleashing the ball and passing, to press more etc., basically to execute Plan A much better than we have. And of course, we can have a Plan A+B, that would be the best.

I too am frustrated to see we don't have many players attempting the shots and the players tend to just give the ball to Messi. While Messi is the most effective and efficient way to score probably, it is definitely head-scratching to see the others don't attempt anything even when they had the chance. I think this will remain an issue for as long as Messi is here, no manager will easily correct that. But after Messi is gone, this issue should automatically go away.

I agree with you that in the future we should have a more robust combination as to our approach to the game. We need to go back to the Guardiola's way when we have possession and better utilize the possession we have, and we need to have other options at our disposal. Tough road ahead.

 

[FCBfan22]

I agree. We need a target man as a plan B. Sell Paco and get a striker that is a penalty box predator (or play Paulinho as a CF for that matter) Valverde also needs to realise when we need to utilise that and bench Suarez for that matter. We have the tools to cross the ball. Dembele is good at crossing. Coutinho is good at crossing. The problem I think is Alba, who is always Messi's bitch. The only think he does is, he puts the ball on the penalty spot and hope that Messi's there. That's all he does. The opponents found that out a couple of months ago and now, he is practically useless. Also, long shots, I agree. Coutinho should shoot more when Messi is swarmed by 3-4 defenders or when they are parking the bus.

 

[BBZ8800]

Usually players who are good in the air are taller and more physical, but this type of players are not that great with their feet normally. Also, if we buy someone who is good at headers only, do we put that player on the bench most of the time and only play him when we execute Plan B? He might not want to come if that is the case. Or do we put him on the field just for set pieces?). To me we should have a Plan B, at the same time we should also retool our Plan A to have more off the ball movement, to become much more quicker in the build up, quicker in unleashing the ball and passing, to press more etc., basically to execute Plan A much better than we have. And of course, we can have a Plan A+B, that would be the best.

Just a random thought, Juventus bought Mandzukic in 2015 for 19M Euros, while we bought Paco in 2016 for 35M, lol.
I know, I know, he is "young".
We got absolutely nothing from Paco. And we'll probably sell him for 8 or 12M to someone.
And someone like Mandzukic could have been an experienced Plan B for 3-4 years, just like Larsson.

Mandzukic is 190cm tall, quite strong, quite fast, decent with feet, works in defense like crazy.
And again, twice as cheap as Paco Alcacer.

Is he THAT bad for a Plan B in the 60th minute when we are losing 0:1 and can't break through the middle with short players?

We currently play Messi-Suarez in attack and what are our other options?
= Dembele coming in as a winger. Or Roberto, Vidal, Gomes, Denis coming in as a winger.
Also, if 19M for Mandzukic was a lot of money, well, we paid 40M for Gomes, 40M for Arda and 40M for Paulinho...

There are always good players who could be a Plan A or a Plan B as a striker who is good with feet and headers.
Dutch forwards are often quite tall and strong and yet quite technical like Kluivert, Van Nistelrooy, Van Persie, Bergkamp etc.

I know, a lot of guys will read this and reply: but this is not our style. "Our style" is quick movement, short forwards, blah blah.
No, that's not Barca's style, that's Pep's style. Don't confuse those two.

Again, neither Barca, nor Messi (Barca and NT team) nor Pep's team are successful in a CL after 2011'.
That is NOT a coincidence.
Then, some people will reply: CL is about luck, you need to be lucky, blah blah.
Real is on a verge of winning 4th CL in 5 years with EXACTLY the same style.
If they are winning it all the time, it can't be a coincidence, right?

How many times have you seen these actions in a CL? Once when Real can't break through the middle, they just cross in the box and score out of fun.
Half of RC7's goals are either cross+header or cross and easy tap ins later in the action.
Do you know what Barca would have done in those actions?
NOTHING.
We would lose the ball after 50 passes around the box and we would probably concede later after a counter.

Against Getafe, you can play one dimensional possession based football.
For a CL level, modern teams need possession, counters, headers, long shots.
We have none of that.

 

[serghei]

All those who think CL is so much more important than the the rest, why the fuck are you even bothering to watch La Liga or Copa del Rey? Just tune in 6-7 times a year for big CL games and be done with football.

 

[Hamzah]

This is a losers mentality. Of course the champions league is important, it’s what everyone wants to win. The best clubs from every nation are involved. Just because Barca has been failing recently they can’t move the goalposts and just act like it’s not important.

The liga is also important, but the champions league is more prestigious. The order of importance is CL>Liga>Copa

What Madrid are doing is bad too, when people look back they will rightly say that they won 4 cl in 5 years but were not even winning their home league, this will affect how they are looked at historically by anyone that knows what they’re talking about, even if the average fan doesn’t.

 

[Luftstalag14]

How many times have you seen these actions in a CL? Once when Real can't break through the middle, they just cross in the box and score out of fun.
Half of RC7's goals are either cross+header or cross and easy tap ins later in the action.
Do you know what Barca would have done in those actions?
NOTHING.

This part is so true. It is really maddening to see how easy for the likes of Real Madrid and Bayern to score off of crosses and headers while we have absolutely none of that.

 

[Joan]

I think Guardiola's way is not wrong or obsolete by any means, it was us who has deviated from that way many moons ago. To me Guardiola's way's biggest pitfall is the lack of effective remedies for counters, but that problem is not just confined to us and Bayern in the past and City right now, many teams are struggling to deal with that too. I guess what I am saying is Guardiola's way is still effective IF it is executed correctly, even in the CL (we will see how City does in the CL in the coming seasons) and we have veered off from that way a long time ago and our lack of success in the recent years in the CL should not be pinned on that.

It's not just us who play Pep's way. He's still a manager. I believe his way is not efficient enough for the CL. That doesn't mean that we or Pep's teams can't win it but that it's way harder.
When we win the CL, we usually win the treble or are very close to it. Note that we play in the toughest league in the world. What does that tell us? That Barca (Pep's team) has to be the best to win it while likes of Real Madrid, Chelsea... don't. They just need to be well adapted. I say 'just' but don't mean that it's an easy thing to do.

If we want to compete in the CL we either need to be at the highest possible level or adapt to the concept of competition.

 

[Luftstalag14]

It's not just us who play Pep's way. He's still a manager. I believe his way is not efficient enough for the CL. That doesn't mean that we or Pep's teams can't win it but that it's way harder.
When we win the CL, we usually win the treble or are very close to it. Note that we play in the toughest league in the world. What does that tell us? That Barca (Pep's team) has to be the best to win it while likes of Real Madrid, Chelsea... don't. They just need to be well adapted. I say 'just' but don't mean that it's an easy thing to do.

If we want to compete in the CL we either need to be at the highest possible level or adapt to the concept of competition.

You lost me there, friend. Tougher for us because we have the Guardiola baggage? Adapted to what?

 

[Joan]

You lost me there, friend. Tougher for us because we have the Guardiola baggage? Adapted to what?

Adapted to the concept of the competition in which one match can decide your result. While our way works fine with league competitions, it often fails in the CL. I'd say it's better adapted to the league that CL.

And yes, it's way tougher. Do you remember when Barca won the competition and was outplayed on the way? We need to execute it (our plan, Pep's plan) perfectly in order to claim the title.

 

[BigBarcaBoy]

The quality of football and entertainment is far better than any world cup or regional championship could produce, international football is no longer the pinnacle

 

[Luftstalag14]

Adapted to the concept of the competition in which one match can decide your result. While our way works fine with league competitions, it often fails in the CL. I'd say it's better adapted to the league that CL.

And yes, it's way tougher. Do you remember when Barca won the competition and was outplayed on the way? We need to execute it (our plan, Pep's plan) perfectly in order to claim the title.

And that is why Mourinho and Ancelotti won so many CLs? There is one style that is more suitable for the CL?

Are we saying that playing top teams being conservative, parking the bus, relying on counters and direct plays such as crosses and headers has a much better chance than the kind of possession style play we had? There might be some truth to it, it kind of reminds of Luis Enrique and our treble in the 14/15 season when we played a lot of counters.

I am still not sure. Perhaps Valverde is closer to doing that?

 

[BarçaBarça]

Sad part about this season is also that if we had gone through against Roma we could have beaten Real if we were matched up.