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FlaFCB
Guest
No, pep didn't raise his level. He was already that good. Pep took advantage of that for his system. Xavi was the best player in the 2008 euro without pep.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
You have to look at the context.
Barca was a laughing stock from 2000-2004.
Like Man Utd or Arsenal today. Nobody rated our players seriously because we were just bad, very bad.
Prior to Euro 2004, how Spanish football looked like?
1. Real won a Champions league in 1998, 2000 and 2002 and was named as the best team of the 20th century
They won La ligas in 2001 and 2003
2. Valencia was a CL finalist in 2000 and 2001
Winning La Liga in 2002 and in 2004 (right before Euros)
3. and then you had a club named Barca, who finished as 4th, 4th, 6th and 2nd in the last 4 years
When you take that context, Real was the best team in the world back then (something like Barca under Pep, when Spain had a lot of our players as starters, right?) and Valencia was the 2nd best team in that moment, and a team who was in form since they have just won La Liga title (the 2nd one in the last 3 years).
While we had the last title back in 99 with Van Gaal and Dutch players.
If you look at the opening match at Euros:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2004_Group_A#Spain_vs_Russia
Real had 5 starters: Casillas, Helguera, Raul Bravo, Raul and Morientes
Valencia, the 2nd best team, had a winning midfield duo Albelda and Baraja, Lw Vicente and a defender Marchena (btw, Barca tried to buy both Albelda and Baraja for years in early 00's, especially David Albelda. He was a captain and an awesome Cdm-Cm, whom we wanted to lead our midfield)
Barca had one starter: Puyol
So, you shouldn't go too much into this why Xavi didn't played aged 24 at Euros.
Barca was horrible back then.
And Spain played with "proven" Real's players who won 3 CLs in the last few years, and with "proven" and "on fire" Valencia's midfield: Baraja, Albelda, Vicente.
Expecting Xavi to play is more or less like expecting some Spanish midfielder from Sevilla or Atletico Madrid (4th placed team) to play for Spain during Pep's era when Busi-Xavi-Iniesta (and even Fabregas) were on their prime.
Well, ok, Busi-Xavi-Iniesta were also the best, but even if there was some guy with similar abilities, you just couldn't bench them in that moment because of their club's success, momentum, chemistry together and everything.
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serghei
Senior Member
If Barcelona was horrible around that time, then how was Xavi world class exactly? By finishing 4th, 4th and 6th in La Liga? When you say a player is world class, it actually means he is influencing games at the highest level, Euros, World Cups, Champions Leagues, La Liga. That is what world class is, the highest level for a player.
Xavi was always a more cerebral player, played less with his body and more with his mind. His game was not based on extraordinary physical abilities, so he actually became better with time, ending up with his prime years at 28-32 years old.
For me, there is no doubt that while he was a very good player since he was young, he became absolute world class more towards his 30s. To say he was always the player he was under Pep, but others didn't see it is wrong.
Players evolve, and Xavi did that too. Xavi at 27-28 is different from Xavi at 24. Just a better player.
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BarcaOG
Banned
It's a little silly (and unfair) to compare any of Gomes, Denis and Rafinha to Xavi and Iniesta. Xavi was probably the best central midfielder ever, and Iniesta's ability is also unique. It bears mentioning that these two, Xavi and Iniesta, shared an uncanny chemistry.
By those standards, any player we buy will be inadequate.
By those standards, any player we buy will be inadequate.
serghei
Senior Member
Can never agree with that. Pep raised Xavi's level by provinding a system that makes him play the football he knows. Few players experience the luck of having a manager who adopts a style of play so perfectly in sync with their strenghts.
Pep never just took advantage of having the right players for his tactics. He implemented a tactic that not only played to his players' strenght, but in fact helped the players develop more.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
You are right:
1. we shouldn't compare any players with Xavi and Iniesta since nobody will reach that level
But:
2. still, Denis/Gomes/Rafinha seem quite meh for now, even for "mortals"
About not comparing players with Xavi, Iniesta... But is it ok to compare players with, let's say, Deco then?
True, he was 27 when he came to Barca and I have no idea how well (or not) he played aged 23.
Deco was 30 here, and slightly past his prime (and low on motivation), but he still played like the 3rd twin brother in Xavi-Deco-Iniesta trio:
Imagine if we could replicate him (with magic, of course) into today's team.
Would you rather play Deco-Raki-Busi or Denis/Gomes-Raki-Busi?
I have a feeling that Deco-Raki-Busi would fit perfectly with Deco in Iniesta's playmaking role...
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FlaFCB
Guest
It's also silly to try to undermine Xavi when he was 23 to try to justify why these players are playing badly right now. That's what started this "discussion".
Aragonés had already done that. And yes, Pep took advantage of having the right players for his tactics. That's exactly what he did. Xavi was perfect for what he had in mind, as were Iniesta and Busi.
serghei
Senior Member
"Undermining" Xavi by saying he wasn't world class yet at 23. Yep, got it. As if it is an universal fact that Xavi was a world class player even in the times when we were finshing 4th, or even 6th in La Liga.
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FlaFCB
Guest
Yes, that's all you did. You also insinuated the club wanted to sell him in 2008 because he wasn't supposedly that good, forgot that? Or that "if" he was good, he would had played the 2006 UCL final, when he was just back from a serious injury, that you obviously didn't know about.
You had no argument from the beginning. And now you're being a strawman to try to save face. It's amusing.
Well, he was. If you were watching Barça back then, you'd know that.
serghei
Senior Member
I didn't say he wasn't that good. I said he wasn't world class before 2008. Read again. I make a very clear distinction between good, very good, and "world class". The discussion is about WORLD CLASS, not good. World class means high quality performances for both club and country. Not being an unused sub at a major tournament, in 2004. But of course Xavi was always world class. The managers were stupid around that time, both at Barca and at Spain NT.
And after that you discredited Guardiola, under which Xavi had the best time of his career by a huge margin. Of course, this was again a coincidence, a matter of dates.
There is no chance Guardiola contributed to Xavi having his best years at 28-31 years of age. None. It was Aragones before him, who mostly only won a tight game with Germany in the final (after an easy semi with Russia), due to Torres speculating an error between Lahm and Lehman, in a game in which Germany dominated possession.
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FlaFCB
Guest
Xavi was already world class before pep. He was the best player in the euro 2008, before pep was Barça's coach. I'm not undermining pep. You are the one undermining Xavi, to make excuses for our current midfielders.
Xavi was already at his peak when pep became coach. What is next, Messi became the player he is because of pep too?
Xavi was already at his peak when pep became coach. What is next, Messi became the player he is because of pep too?
serghei
Senior Member
No, I don't think Xavi was world class before 2008. And I can very well believe that without a hidden agenda.
Pep had an important role in Messi's development as well. It's absurd to think that the biggest manager in the club's history doesn't have an important role in the players' development, be it Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Busquets or whatever.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
Both were WC before Pep,In fact both were considered two of the top midfielders in the world before having a single training session with him. What they did with Aragones in Euro 2008 has nothing to do with Pep.
But to some extent I agree with Serghei though,it took Xavi sometime to develop.
He was a very good player since he was 22 and could call him World Class depending on your definition of the word but he surely kept improving every year until he was almost 28,few players does that.
Iniesta was very good at the age of 22 for example but still kept improving consistently.
The key word in judging players isn't just how good they were at certain age,it is how much they keep develop during the coarse of their young career.
Xavi was good/great/World Class or whatever you call it but few people thought he will end with the legacy he had,same goes (to a less extent) for Iniesta.
For Gomes,Denis,Alena etc it is all about keep improving. All of them has good talent to build on but they are work in progress. few reach their full potential and it is up to them to work their way to be among the world greats
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
He played a big role with Messi for sure,but his role was way less with Iniesta & Xavi. both were showing their greatness before him.
And it isn't absurd to think that Pep didn't play a role in their development,his job is to get the best use of the players he had and he has done that by implementing a system on their strength. for me that isn't developing players but using them well.
He has played huge role in Busquets too,can't tell about Pique because he was great from day one but also had a lot of up and downs with him and at sometimes it looked like Pep was unsure what to do with him,many rumors that he actually wanted him out at the end of his tenure but you can never be sure.
serghei
Senior Member
Different times. Deco was a high value transfer, a world class player before Barcelona and the playmaker in the Champions League holders FC Porto. If you were to buy a player like that now, you'd pay 80m for him. So, Deco was much more of a finished product than Gomes is for example.
People say we payed a lot for Gomes. How much is a lot today? In this market, 35m is a normal sum for a promising, yet still in the development stage, player.
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