Xavi Hernández

[FlaFCB]

No, I don't think Xavi was world class before 2008. And I can very well believe that without a hidden agenda.

Pep had an important role in Messi's development as well. It's absurd to think that the biggest manager in the club's history doesn't have an important role in the players' development, be it Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Busquets or whatever.

Yeah, he magically became wc in the euro 2008, because he heard of Pep's appointment. He was already a formed player. So were Messi and Iniesta. What pep did was provide a system where they flourish together. You should search some interviews. Xavi himself considers aragones as th most important coach he had.

I really wish Denis, Rafinha or Gomes had half his talent at the same age.

 

[Deco 20]

He played a big role with Messi for sure,but his role was way less with Iniesta & Xavi. both were showing their greatness before him.
And it isn't absurd to think that Pep didn't play a role in their development,his job is to get the best use of the players he had and he has done that by implementing a system on their strength. for me that isn't developing players but using them well.
He has played huge role in Busquets too,can't tell about Pique because he was great from day one but also had a lot of up and downs with him and at sometimes it looked like Pep was unsure what to do with him,many rumors that he actually wanted him out at the end of his tenure but you can never be sure.

Messi too. They were all world class before Pep joined. Messi was arguably the best player in the world.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Messi too. They were all world class before Pep joined. Messi was arguably the best player in the world.

Messi was world class b4 and he himself recognized Rijkaard as his most important coach IIRC,that said Pep helped him tremendously and moving him to false 9 at that time was gr8 move and his finishing has improved too under him. So while he was world class before him I think it will be fair to recognize Pep role with him

 

[serghei]

He played a big role with Messi for sure,but his role was way less with Iniesta & Xavi. both were showing their greatness before him.
And it isn't absurd to think that Pep didn't play a role in their development,his job is to get the best use of the players he had and he has done that by implementing a system on their strength. for me that isn't developing players but using them well.
He has played huge role in Busquets too,can't tell about Pique because he was great from day one but also had a lot of up and downs with him and at sometimes it looked like Pep was unsure what to do with him,many rumors that he actually wanted him out at the end of his tenure but you can never be sure.

Disagree. If you look at the results these players have had under Pep, it's much better than what they achieved before him. In 2007 and 2008 we won nothing of note. And when Pep came we pretty much won the motherload. I think what Pep did goes well beyond just using the players in the right way. His brand of football elevated the quality in all of our players, to the point that they became better players under him than they were before.

Messi being the best ever, when did this talk started? Under Pep. Barca being the best side ever, when did this idea take shape? Under Pep. Xavi being one of the greatest midfielders ever, and being nominated for Ballon d'Or and winning the World Cup. When did this happen? under Pep.

You're telling me all this happened because Pep used the players well? No. What Pep did was elevating a team to a higher level, and he did that also by helping the players to become better versions of themselves. It's much more than just tactics.

Even the Ballon d'Or showed a greater appreciation for Messi, Xavi and Iniesta during Pep and starting with 2008-09, which goes to show they were actually rated as better players than before.

Under Pep.
2009 - Messi Ronaldo Xavi
2010 - Messi Iniesta Xavi
2011 - Messi Ronaldo Xavi
2012 - Messi Ronaldo Iniesta

Messi won 4 out of his 5 Ballon d'Ors under Guardiola. Xavi made the top 3 players in the world in each year during Pep's era except the last one. Iniesta made the top 3 two times as well.

Neither Xavi, nor Iniesta were on Ballon d'Or top 3 players before 2008-09 btw. I checked the lists and they weren't even in the top 20 up until 08/09 season.

 

[FlaFCB]

Oh my, awards now are the best way to assess a player's worth. If your team don't play well as a whole, and you don't win anything, you're automatically a bad player. You're only good if the bdor and fifa awards recognize you. Guess Ramos is indeed better than Pique, then

And cr on his way to be as good as Messi too, ofc.

 

[jamrock]

Messi was class before pep, just always injured. Pep's biggest credit as it relates to messi, was helping him with his Injury issues, after that the rest came. Pep turned him into arguably the best player ever, and no coach has gotten out of messi what pep has, even with his improving stats after pep left, but he was class before pep.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Disagree. If you look at the results these players have had under Pep, it's much better than what they achieved before him. In 2007 and 2008 we won nothing of note. And when Pep came we pretty much won the motherload. I think what Pep did goes well beyond just using the players in the right way. His brand of football elevated the quality in all of our players, to the point that they became better players under him than they were before.

Messi being the best ever, when did this talk started? Under Pep. Barca being the best side ever, when did this idea take shape? Under Pep. Xavi being one of the greatest midfielders ever, and being nominated for Ballon d'Or and winning the World Cup. When did this happen? under Pep.

You're telling me all this happened because Pep used the players well? No. What Pep did was elevating a team to a higher level, and he did that also by helping the players to become better versions of themselves. It's much more than just tactics.

Even the Ballon d'Or showed a greater appreciation for Messi, Xavi and Iniesta during Pep and starting with 2008-09, which goes to show they were actually rated as better players than before.

Under Pep.
2009 - Messi Ronaldo Xavi
2010 - Messi Iniesta Xavi
2011 - Messi Ronaldo Xavi
2012 - Messi Ronaldo Iniesta

Messi won 4 out of his 5 Ballon d'Ors under Guardiola. Xavi made the top 3 players in the world in each year during Pep's era except the last one. Iniesta made the top 3 two times as well.

Neither Xavi, nor Iniesta were on Ballon d'Or top 3 players before 2008-09 btw. I checked the lists and they weren't even in the top 20 up until 08/09 season.

Messi was 21 before Pep so no way anyone would mention him as best ever before that. And I can pretty much use your arguments of "he said" and say when Messi is most thankful to the coach before Pep then that actually hurt Pep in the argument,but I didn't deny Pep contribution to Messi.
But I think you are confusing playing team to full potential and developing player,and you are contradicting yourself when we compare it to your argument about Lucho
So when Messi,Suarez,Neymar(who were younger than Xavi,Iniesta,Puyol when Pep took over for example) play their best football ever and give us even better 2 seasons than Pep did then the coach is lucky with those players,but for Pep to have the 2 best players in the team that had just won the Euros,the 2nd best player in the world in the year before who just completed 21 and a team that competed on all competitions in the year before with over half of the squad injured with the addition of one of the most promising CB,best RB in the world then it is due to coach developing this players?
I don't know man,but your argument seems really biased.
For me Pep has developed Busquets,Pedro and played a part in Messi development. Can add Pique too but that is it. Otherwise he is a brilliant coach who implemented the best usage of his players.

 

[BBZ8800]

Ok, both Flavia, Sergei and Khaled are right here.
Imo, Xavi was a world class even younger but as Khaled said, he kept improving further and further and reached insane levels later during Pep.
But still, he was considered as one of the best players in the world even in 2005-2006 under Rijkaard, and he was still miles ahead of Denis, Gomes, Rafinha, Rakitic etc.

Fair enough. I was only commenting that the terms of reference we were using are inapplicable. You are right: someone like Deco is a better standard. He was great for some three seasons for us, and it is indeed fair to say that Gomes has, by comparison, been a lot less effective.

I think Rakitic should be our mark here though. I'm too young to know how good Deco was in his first season. But Rakitic had an immediate and recognizable impact on our performances almost from his first game. It is here where Denis and Gomes cannot compare. They have played some (admittedly few) games now and I can't say they (especially Gomes) have added anything different or noticeable. Right now, they are simply filling in for Iniesta who, for the reasons I outlined in my last post, they cannot ever really replace. Bodies on the field.

From how i remember Deco:
1. first season 2004/05 10/10 (we won La Liga), he fitted right in as if he played here since always
2. 2nd season 2005/06 10/10 (La Liga, CL)
3. after that 7/10 in his 3rd season
4. and 4-5/10 in his last season

On one hand, he was another example of a foreigner who came here and lost his motivation quickly (even though, he was older when he came, aged 27).
About Raki vs Deco, imo, Raki had only one world class season, 2014/15, where he played for let's say 9/10. He was valuable, but he had a slow start and bad matches against some opponents (problems in tight spaces, problems with a ball control, lot of misplaced passes at times, not too creative here).
Raki's 2nd season was 7/10 at best. Raki's current season is 4/10 at best.

I wrote before, Rijkaard said after his first season (2003/04, when we were midtable after half of the season, and then had 10+ wins in a 2nd part of a season and almost won a title in the end, finishing behind Valencia in the end), when we had only Ronnie, that he figured out what the team was missing.
He bought "proven leaders" from other teams=players who were more or less creators and most important players of other teams, but also, him and directors gave a lot of importance to a mental strength of a players, and so they said that they more or less bought a several new "captains" in a summer of 2004 with:
1. Deco, a leader of Porto, who has just won a CL under Mourinho in 2004
2. Guily, a captain of Monaco who lost in that CL final
3. Larsson, a leader of Celtic for a decade
4. Edmilson, a leader persona from Lyon
5. Etoo etc

About Deco, Rijkaard said: I wanted another playmaker besides Ronaldinho. We relied too much on Ronaldinho in 2003/04, and when he is injured or heavily marked, we don't have any solutions. So, Deco was brought to be a 2nd playmaker of that team, when Ronnie is marked.

For example, this is a better video (because these are extended highlights, and there we can see more about an actual match than videos which show only goals and assists. You can "feel" the match, a team and movement of players better in these videos) to remember Deco from his 1st season:
Barca:Real from November of 2004 (we will win La liga in that season, the first one since 1999'. And Deco was here only for 3 Months in that moment. But in those days, we already played this way: give a ball to Ronaldinho. Or, if just give a ball to Deco, or eventually Xavi, and one of those 3 will create something for Ronnie/Etoo/Larsson): (Real with Zidane, Figo, R9, Beckham):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C0qlTMpBas

(**a nice goal at 16:00)
Btw, Ronaldinho was equally as old as current Neymar (24, soon to turn 25) in this video.
So, if people want to check whether Neymar can be a new Ronaldinho, they should check how imposing Ronnie was at the age 24-25.
(Ronnie=leader, imposing, controlling matches, key figure, zero fights with opponents, zero unneeded/childish moves/tricks)
Also, Xavi was 24 here.
Iniesta 20.
Puyol 26.
Etoo 23 (if his age is true, of course)
= so, if people want to compare current players with some legends when they were young

Different times. Deco was a high value transfer, a world class player before Barcelona and the playmaker in the Champions League holders FC Porto. If you were to buy a player like that now, you'd pay 80m for him. So, Deco was much more of a finished product than Gomes is for example.

People say we payed a lot for Gomes. How much is a lot today? In this market, 35m is a normal sum for a promising, yet still in the development stage, player.

True, Deco was expensive back then, probably like a 60-70M transfer today.
But then, is it better to buy Deco for 60-70, or Arda for 30-40 and Gomes for 30-40 (and Paco for 30, Denis for 10, Vidal for 20).
I mean, only for money on these players, we could have bought 2 Decos in a current era.
Or, Coutinho, Gundogan, Ozil (2 of them), and imo, Coutinho/Ozil + Gundogan starting Cm pair would offer way more than Denis-Gomes, isn't it?

On one hand, Deco was expensive, and we tried for a cheaper transfers (Denis) and semi expensive (Gomes) and one horrible-political transfer (Arda).
So, no matter how we twist it, the board also made some horrible transfers (Gomes+Arda together are 70-80M) and wrong choices.

 

[Barcilliant]

It's a little silly (and unfair) to compare any of Gomes, Denis and Rafinha to Xavi and Iniesta. Xavi was probably the best central midfielder ever, and Iniesta's ability is also unique. It bears mentioning that these two, Xavi and Iniesta, shared an uncanny chemistry.

By those standards, any player we buy will be inadequate.

THIS! There is a reason why these guys are special. They are legends. Replacing players like these two is impossible. We are not changing light bulbs or something.

Xavi and Iniesta along with Pep and Messi was the perfect storm. Trying to replicate that is impossible. We were blessed with some great players, the greatest ever and a great young coach. Plus all of them were from La Masia. Homemade.

People need to be patient with the current crop of New players. Umtiti, Digne and Gomes could be Barca material but Paco certainly is not. Jury is out on the rest.

If Lucho is going to play on the counter play a proper system with the right players. At the moment the players are bewildered and confused. The New players are finding it hard to adapt Bar Umtiti.

 

[Neeraj]

THIS! There is a reason why these guys are special. They are legends. Replacing players like these two is impossible. We are not changing light bulbs or something.

Xavi and Iniesta along with Pep and Messi was the perfect storm. Trying to replicate that is impossible. We were blessed with some great players, the greatest ever and a great young coach. Plus all of them were from La Masia. Homemade.

People need to be patient with the current crop of New players. Umtiti, Digne and Gomes could be Barca material but Paco certainly is not. Jury is out on the rest.

If Lucho is going to play on the counter play a proper system with the right players. At the moment the players are bewildered and confused. The New players are finding it hard to adapt Bar Umtiti.

You don't have to play at Xavi or Iniesta's level to not suck. There are other good midfielders who play for other teams...

I agree that Lucho is probably the main problem we have, I don't get this argument about how Gomes and co. can't be held responsible because they are not Xaviesta..

 

[serghei]

Messi was 21 before Pep so no way anyone would mention him as best ever before that. And I can pretty much use your arguments of "he said" and say when Messi is most thankful to the coach before Pep then that actually hurt Pep in the argument,but I didn't deny Pep contribution to Messi.
But I think you are confusing playing team to full potential and developing player,and you are contradicting yourself when we compare it to your argument about Lucho
So when Messi,Suarez,Neymar(who were younger than Xavi,Iniesta,Puyol when Pep took over for example) play their best football ever and give us even better 2 seasons than Pep did then the coach is lucky with those players,but for Pep to have the 2 best players in the team that had just won the Euros,the 2nd best player in the world in the year before who just completed 21 and a team that competed on all competitions in the year before with over half of the squad injured with the addition of one of the most promising CB,best RB in the world then it is due to coach developing this players?
I don't know man,but your argument seems really biased.
For me Pep has developed Busquets,Pedro and played a part in Messi development. Can add Pique too but that is it. Otherwise he is a brilliant coach who implemented the best usage of his players.

Players always speak highly about the managers that promoted them in the first place. Nothing more in Messi's comment than high praise for the manager that promoted him in the first team. It's normal. Pep said about Lahm he is the most intelligent player he worked with. Doesn't mean it's true. Players praising each other, or praising a manager right after that manager died, or the manager that promoted them is a very nice gesture, and not much more than that.

I don't think I'm confusing playing team to full potential and player development. I think the two are perfectly related, whereas you and Flavia seem to think a team that is playing to it's full potential has no role whatsoever in the development of the players into better versions of themselves. And it's just a matter of dates that Xavi and Iniesta exploded when Pep came, and he actually had no influence over their development, he just used them well. And if another manager had come before Pep and used a similar system, they would've been as good as they were in 2009-11 even when they were 23-24 years old. I'm sorry, it has nothing to do with bias over someone, I just think it's wrong.

To me, when you play amazing football, win 6/6 titles in a year, humiliate your rival 5-0 and 6-2 in some of the most one sided Clasicos ever, win 2 CLs (and being extremely unlucky not to play 4 Champions League finals in 4 years and maybe win them all), win 3 La Ligas in a row etc., it is impossible not to become a better player in a team like that. Winning and playing at the highest level consistently is what makes a player become better in the first place. Ability is there before, but it is the continuous usage of that ability in a consistent manner, at the highest level, under the right platform, that perfects it and elevates it. That is what happened under Pep. Players becoming better by using their abilities consistently and at the highes level, thus elevating that ability into something more. It's not a mere coincidence that all of Messi, Iniesta and Xavi had the best years under Pep, because all Pep did was use them well. That's undermining the influence of a master manager, by overrating the younger (22-24) versions of Xavi and Iniesta, and saying there were the players from under Pep all along, the past managers were at fault (including Rijkhaard it seams). It's not how it works for me.

I never said Pep would've done what he did at Barcelona at Crystal Palace. Of course he was lucky as well to have those players. That's not the point of the dicussion. But he wasn't lucky in the sense that he had 3 attacking players that score 130 goals a season. That's extremely rare, people talk about that trio as the best front three ever. There is luck, and there is luck. To put things in perspective, opposition fans talked before the season even started in 2014-15 (check on redcafe) that this MSN trio would bring us glory that year. A lot of the posters there thought that with Suarez' signing we would win the treble. I don't remeber people saying we'll win the treble when Pep took over in 2008, or that we will beat Madrid 6-2 that season. Probably because we barely ended 3rd before Pep came and were humiliated by Madrid 4-1, and we were not a game away of being Champions like before Enrique. Before Lucho came, we won both games in La Liga against Madrid. We actually even scored 4 goals in Bernabeu and won 4-3. That was already a team which didn't need a lot of changes, if it was capable of beating the CL winner from that year on their home ground while scoring 4 goals. Compare it with the team Pep took, who were beaten 4-1 by a much inferior Madrid. Pep had to change the whole team, Lucho had to tweak some things and did that with some solid transfers.

 

[serghei]

Oh my, awards now are the best way to assess a player's worth. If your team don't play well as a whole, and you don't win anything, you're automatically a bad player. You're only good if the bdor and fifa awards recognize you. Guess Ramos is indeed better than Pique, then

And cr on his way to be as good as Messi too, ofc.

You missed the part where winning titles and influencing games at the highest level is a key factor in being world class. There is a relation here you're missing imo. You can't actually be world class based on the hypothesis that if a different style was implemented in your younger days you would've done this or that.

True, Deco was expensive back then, probably like a 60-70M transfer today.
But then, is it better to buy Deco for 60-70, or Arda for 30-40 and Gomes for 30-40 (and Paco for 30, Denis for 10, Vidal for 20).
I mean, only for money on these players, we could have bought 2 Decos in a current era.
Or, Coutinho, Gundogan, Ozil (2 of them), and imo, Coutinho/Ozil + Gundogan starting Cm pair would offer way more than Denis-Gomes, isn't it?

On one hand, Deco was expensive, and we tried for a cheaper transfers (Denis) and semi expensive (Gomes) and one horrible-political transfer (Arda).
So, no matter how we twist it, the board also made some horrible transfers (Gomes+Arda together are 70-80M) and wrong choices.

Deco would've cost more than 60-70 imo. More like 80-100m, based on how he was rated then.

It is better to buy Deco for 60-70 yes, but there are other teams who would pay top money for him before he became world class at Porto. You can't actually be world class now and still play at Porto. Sort of like Hazard. Chelsea didn't let Hazard become world class before they signed him. They took him earlier, and developed him into a better player.

This seems to be the best tactic now. Madrid with Ozil did the same. They didn't took Ozil when he was world class. But before. Juventus did the same with Dybala (although it's arguable he's world class). Bayern seek to do the same with Costa, Coman, and now Sanches. Atletico did the same with Griezmann, Carrasco. PSG did the same with Marquinhos, and have struck gold with Verratti.

We tried the same with Sanchez, and we should've sold him for more because he was starting to look world class even in our last season. He didn't work out but we still made money on him. So, that approach is the best. You can't afford to stop developing players and buy only world class talent. Umtiti is another example.

Of course, there are rare occasions when world class players are available for a lot less than their real value. In those rare occasions you go for them. Still can't believe we didn't go for Kroos.

 

[FlaFCB]

You missed the part where winning titles and influencing games at the highest level is a key factor in being world class. There is a relation here you're missing imo. You can't actually be world class based on the hypothesis that if a different style was implemented in your younger days you would've done this or that.

You're the one who missed it entirely. Xavi had already won 3 ligas, 2 spanish supercups, one CL and one Euro before Pep arrived. He had the bad luck of the gaspart era, but he was doing what he did his whole footballing career from early on. His reached his peak before Pep was his coach, he just kept it for a long time. But he was already controlling games and giving masterful passes in 2003. You're diverting the original subject to this "pep" nonsense now, when your 1st "argument" was that Xavi wasn't as good when he was 23, to justify gomes, denis, rafinha disappointing now, and this is completely wrong. Bbz even put a video from 2003. I don't know how you can watch it and not see he was already doing what he always did.

 

[Barcaman]

Wrong. Xavi was already wc before pep arrived. Just watch the 2008 euro and you'll change your mind. He won best player of that euro as well. Xavi at 23 was infinitely superior to Gomes, Denis, Rafinha, etc. And so was Iniesta. Iniesta, at 22, played very well in the 2006 ucl final, as a dm.

Well said.

Even before Rijkaard, aged 18, you could see what kind of special player he was.

 

[serghei]

You're the one who missed it entirely. Xavi had already won 3 ligas, 2 spanish supercups, one CL and one Euro before Pep arrived. He had the bad luck of the gaspart era, but he was doing what he did his whole footballing career from early on. His reached his peak before Pep was his coach, he just kept it for a long time. But he was already controlling games and giving masterful passes in 2003. You're diverting the original subject to this "pep" nonsense now, when your 1st "argument" was that Xavi wasn't as good when he was 23, gomes, denis, rafinha age, and this is completely wrong. Bbz even put a video from 2003. I don't know how you can watch it and not see he was already doing what he always did.

I thought he was injured in the Champions League that season? He barely played, right? Spanish supercups aren't even worth mentioning when talking about trophies that really matter. He won the Euro well after 24 years old, when you said he was still world class. At 24 he was an unused sub in Euro 2004.

I said Xavi wasn't as good when he was 23 compared to his best years under Pep, and I always stick by that. That was the original subject. And you reply he was always world class, trying to imply he actually was the same player from under Guardiola, when he was 22-23 as well. I said he wasn't world class for me, because he lacked some of the things that for me matter when saying somebody is world class.