10 - Lionel Messi - v1

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Panna

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^^Yeah and Messi is selfish! And do not creat anything for his teammates.
I hope we will sell Messi this summer and buy one of the favourites of Pele.
 
VivaBarca

VivaBarca

If Carlsberg did forum members
stokebarca said:
Just out of interest, I heard a few times in the past that Pele and Maradonna don't get on. What was the issue there?
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They're both egotistical cunts is how I've viewed it.

Although Maradona comes across as humorous in his statements whereas Pele appears more bitter and jealous.
 
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sumo

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Hatem Ben Arfa said:
I don't think so.

You are either born with it or you are not. That is what defines the greats of football.

Instead of learning it in training and through coaching, it is innately built into them. From the first time they start playing they do everything instinctively right; almost perfect control, touch, close control, almost perfect technique, ability.

You are born with it.

I don't care if in 50 years time you take a 1000 kids and put them in football academy school aged 18 months old and train them for the rest of their lives. Not a single 1 of them will turn out to be a Ronaldo(BRA), Pele or a Messi. Not 1 of them.
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That's ridiculous. People often use that as an excuse for not excelling themselves in anything. Plus its an insult to people like Messi who have put so much practice to be where they are.

Take any one who has mastered something and you'll see someone who worked very hard to get that. Mozart, Einstein, Messi, the Beatles, they all spent over 10 000 hours intense practice before they accomplished anything. You watch youtube videos of messi playing great as a 10 year old, thats because he was practicing every single day to get that good, and he's been practicing every day since. It's a myth that he was good the first time he touched a ball, created by people who like stories.
 
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OriginalThinking

OriginalThinking

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sumo said:
That's ridiculous. People often use that as an excuse for not excelling themselves in anything. Plus its an insult to people like Messi who have put so much practice to be where they are.

Take any one who has mastered something and you'll see someone who worked very hard to get that. Mozart, Einstein, Messi, the Beatles, they all spent over 10 000 hours intense practice before they accomplished anything. You watch youtube videos of messi playing great as a 10 year old, thats because he was practicing every single day to get that good, and he's been practicing every day since. It's a myth that he was good the first time he touched a ball, created by people who like stories.
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I think you've missed his point. He's not saying that Messi hasn't practised (Like Maradona he grew up with a ball practically glued to his foot) but some people are naturally gifted even before they've started practising. I am not naturally gifted, I had to work hard just to manage keepy uppy's. In Messi's case I'd guarantee he was a natural with the ball from day one. Was he incredible from day one? Probably not, but the natural talent he has would have still made him umpteen times better than 99% of kids at the same age. So yeah you could take 1000 kids and have them practice every day but put them up against a player who has practised every day but is also naturally talented and the latter will be better every time. Also you've got to understand that players like Messi are freaks - A combination of near perfect genetics (and I factor in the growth hormone definciency into that, because being smaller for longer meant that he had to be that much better with the ball than his opponents as he couldn't compete physically with players of the same age), socio-economic factors, an insane love of football to the near exclusivity of any other hobby, parents who supported him, being in the right place at the right time and location - Doubt Messi would have been as good if he'd been brought up in Scotland!
 
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beautifulgame

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sumo said:
Physics isn't soccer, you just supported my point though. The best physicists of today definitely know as much as Einstein did. So if you are talking knowledge, or football skill ,than yes, there is improvement. But Einstein was great because he was able to leap ahead in his thinking from his peers. Like Messi or Pele.
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No, your missing the point.

Of course they know what Einstein knew--most scientists still don't see his quantum theory in the light that he saw it though--but that doesn't make them an intellectually equivalent does it? For instance, Will Hunting can solve high level math problem and explain to his M.I.T. mentor and the mentor can follow along and understand the problem afterward, however that doesn't mean that the mentor is now intellectually equivalent to Will Hunting and can now match his problem solving ability.

A relevant example in science could be the Tao or Sikhism's acknowledgement that the universe is held together by a unified force. Now, so much time has passed and all major physicists are now looking for a unified energy or force after the realization of the quantum having put aside the causality paradigm that was brought on by the Newtonian era.

Furthermore, by your logic we are suppose to assume that the average footballer is now on par with Pele because so much time has passed? Excuse me but any decent football coach will tell you otherwise. One a technical level most top league footballers can't imagine doing what Pele was doing 50 years ago.

My point is this, things CHANGE over time, they don't necessarily just get better or better in EVERY way.

Professional football has changed over time to be less technical and more athletics based, but just because a certain amount of time has passed we cannot assume that everything about the sport has improved. Most players are probably on par athletically with Pele few to none are technically.
 
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Lemmi

Lemmi

The Reckoner
You guys can't argue if I say that I am the best ever, because you have never seen me play.


Jus saying.
 
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sumo

New member
OriginalThinking said:
I think you've missed his point. He's not saying that Messi hasn't practised (Like Maradona he grew up with a ball practically glued to his foot) but some people are naturally gifted even before they've started practising. I am not naturally gifted, I had to work hard just to manage keepy uppy's. In Messi's case I'd guarantee he was a natural with the ball from day one. Was he incredible from day one? Probably not, but the natural talent he has would have still made him umpteen times better than 99% of kids at the same age. So yeah you could take 1000 kids and have them practice every day but put them up against a player who has practised every day but is also naturally talented and the latter will be better every time.
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No, I agree with you. What I'm saying is that there are a few people out there with the potential to be geniuses, not everybody could be. What's improved is the training regime, the knowledge about what works and what doesn't, strategies for taking on defenders, etc. I can't prove it, but I honestly think that allows a person with amazing potential (like David Villa) to be as good as someone with genius potential, but less footballing knowledge, like Pele.

Chess is a good example. I guarantee any of the top grandmasters of today would beat Capablanca, or Fischer. They would see a move and be like "i've seen that move, I know what to expect." The point is Bobby Fischer probably invented that move.
 
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