10 - Lionel Messi - v1

[VivaBarca]

That's because Messi is a lot faster not because he's a better dribbler. What makes Iniesta imo the best dribbler in the world is that he doesn't rely on pace to beat defenders, it's just pure dribbling skills.



As I said, Messi has a lot more pace. Iniesta is somewhat slow, which makes the way he beats defenders even more impressive. He relies solely on dribbling technique.

Messi could still beat the defenders without his pace, although obviously his ability to score wondergoals would be hampered.

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

depends how you define dribbling... iniesta is definitely a more elegant dribbler than messi, who has such close control on the ball and can run at top speed without losing any control over it (this makes him the best 'dribbler' for me)

close to my explanation but i agree 100 %

"Pace... try even closer ball control at high speed (touch at every small step), better acceleration and the best of all as Wenger said it beautifully: he is the only player who can change direction at such a pace. That is the secret of Messi's genius. "

 

[Trillske]

You guys are forgetting the major aspect of mentality. Messi wants to win everything, wants to be the biggest thing in fotball, is extremely egoistical in his winning mentality - has that drive.

Looking at the way iniesta handles the ball, im pretty certain he could do the insane runs as well - physicaly. He just doesnt, its not in him.

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

You guys are forgetting the major aspect of mentality. Messi wants to win everything, wants to be the biggest thing in fotball, is extremely egoistical in his winning mentality - has that drive.

Looking at the way iniesta handles the ball, im pretty certain he could do the insane runs as well - physicaly. He just doesnt, its not in him.

Potential..perhaps but then we have another problem when he gets to the goal: his finishing is up there with Alves

 

[Manuel Traquete]

Messi could still beat the defenders without his pace, although obviously his ability to score wondergoals would be hampered.

Yes, I'm in no way saying Messi's dribbling technique isn't God-like. But I don't think Iniesta is behind him in that department honestly, I'd even say he's a more elegant dribble. How often have we seen Iniesta get out of seemingly impossible situation just because of his incredible dribbling technique and footwork. I do firmly believe his close control is just as good as Messi's.

If dribbling at pace doesn't add to overall dribbling skill then by that logic Luis Figo was the best dribbler of all time, he managed to pass players with no pace at all


And Iniesta isn't really as slow as you think,

Figo was much faster than Iniesta.

And a player like Ronaldo probably gets past as many or even more players than Iniesta per match. This doesn't mean he's a better dribbler, he's just much faster. The best way to see a player dribbling technique is in tight areas, where he can solely rely on his technique and footwork. I don't think Iniesta's close control is in any way inferior to Messi's.

 

[Trillske]

Potential..perhaps but then we have another problem when he gets to the goal: his finishing is up there with Alves

I think thats linked as well. Its like Iniestas awesomeness was just in him geneticaly, he doesnt fit the profile of a world class player - in any sport - one bit. Today, he is the only player I can think of that gets to the top level in fotball anyway. Just makes me even more curious as to what would happen if you combined Iniestas understanding of ball physics with the mentality of guys like Messi.

 

[gingerless]

nobody's finishing should be compared to alves... not even ronaldo in the last clasico

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

Yes, I'm in no way saying Messi's dribbling technique isn't God-like. But I don't think Iniesta is behind him in that department honestly, I'd even say he's a more elegant dribble. How often have we seen Iniesta get out of seemingly impossible situation just because of his incredible dribbling technique and footwork. I do firmly believe his close control is just as good as Messi's.



Figo was much faster than Iniesta.

And a player like Ronaldo probably gets past as many or even more players than Iniesta per match. This doesn't mean he's a better dribbler, he's just much faster. The best way to see a player dribbling technique is in tight areas, where he can solely rely on his technique and footwork. I don't think Iniesta's close control is in any way inferior to Messi's.

The evidence is there: Messi continuously beats defenders ; non stop in matches, week after week, season after season. Iniesta doesnt. He has the talent to create an opening but not breaking down defenses. Sorry
Dribbling wise:
Out of this world level: Messi
Masterfull skill level: Iniesta
Physical level: the rest

 

[Trillske]

As for dribbling, its not only about control of the ball, its just as much approximation of what is happening with the surroundings. Messi is insane with that, but I´d argue Iniesta is out of this world, inhuman. Him getting out of impossible positions, its not about control, thats an aspect but not even the biggest one - he understands whats happening around him and finds a tiny (future) gap.

So how do you do that? Well, you might see a ball leaving the ground, two players start running in different directions, you turn around yet still know whats happening behind you because you calculated the trajectory of the ball and gave a good approximation of the players future movements, their reactions to your future movemets, ect, ect..

The skill of understanding what happens with the ball if you hit it a certain way is closely linked to understanding the surrounding though, thats why I think Iniesta has an IQ of 1000.

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

As for dribbling, its not only about control of the ball, its just as much approximation of what is happening with the surroundings. Messi is insane with that, but I´d argue Iniesta is out of this world, inhuman. Him getting out of impossible positions, its not about control, thats an aspect but not even the biggest one - he understands whats happening around him and finds a tiny (future) gap.

So how do you do that? Well, you might see a ball leaving the ground, two players start running in different directions, you turn around yet still know whats happening behind you because you calculated the trajectory of the ball and gave a good approximation of the players future movements, their reactions to your future movemets, ect, ect..

The skill of understanding what happens with the ball if you hit it a certain way is closely linked to understanding the surrounding though, thats why I think Iniesta has an IQ of 1000.

I agree on Iniestas awareness. However, what kind of awareness do you think Messi must have while doing it surrounded by midfield and a whole defense and still putting the ball in the net. Messi is just "increible". He does what he wants to do...

 

[oggmar]

This thread is just

 

[zanela]

According to that list Cristiano Ronaldo is the fifth best playmaker in the world (or the second best outside of Barcelona). Ahead of Xabi Alonso, Fabregas etc. Credible list that is.

Your line of argumentation has derailed to the simple sentence: "Because everyone says so" (which you don't even underline with facts). A bit infantile, isn't it?

You're persistent with your definition, and unwilling to accept none of the arguments brought forward not just by me but those of the many gentlemen the past few pages. There is not much else i can do, can i?

Anyway, i don't necessarily agree with the ranking in the list. There 'll always be some bias (precisely y CR's so high up) in any voting-based system. But if you're gonna tell me the members of the football fraternity that voted across 81 nations can't grasp the basics of football, that they decided on the definition of playmaking and cast votes for Silva, Messi, Sneijder, Özil, Forlan on a whim, then i call that bullshit.


And what is credible these days? FIFA, UEFA, or the French/ Italian sport magazines? Whenever there are these lists produced, there is always someone moaning or is unhappy with the results.

 

[barcelonista]

You're persistent with your definition, and unwilling to accept none of the arguments brought forward not just by me but those of the many gentlemen the past few pages. There is not much else i can do, can i?

A bit arrogant, are we? You voiced an opinion. I did so. Why would I need to "give up persistence" and accept your arguments and not the other way around? That's not how discussions work. Also: Can you quote yourself again? Because as far as I know I replied to all of your arguments and have good reason to not accept them. The simple answer I got after my replies was no further discussion but: "Everyone else thinks like me." And then you started to repeat yourself (which is an indicator that you simply run out of arguments), posting a highly suspicious list in which Cristiano Ronaldo is the second best playmaker in the world outside of Barcelona.

I wrote this:

It's bollocks, really. You should notice yourself though since by your definition you consider Alves a playmaker when in reality he's a highy skilled fullback with 5 lungs who's instructed to function as another winger in a team that plays 80 % of the game in the other teams half, thus resulting in him being involved in attacking moves more than anyone else. Hence why he had more assists last season than Xavi and Iniesta together. It doesn't make him a playmaker though. Neither is Messi, no matter how big his assist tally might be. Playmakers are "making the play". Messi doesn't even communicate with his teammates. Once the ball is at his feet, he's running towards goal, creating space and releasing the ball at the right team. That. Is. Not. Playmaking. Wenger said something very interesting after the 4-1 defeat of Arsenal. He said (from my head, the interview is on YouTube as well): "What makes it so hard to contain Messi is the fact that he's often not in the game." It was spot on. He's often taking his time out in games, trotting upfront (people here are fuming then that he should be rested instead of doing that). Have you ever seen a playmaker who's "often not in the game"?

If he actually WAS a playmaker, Argentina wouldn't struggle so much, searching for a creative playmaker like Riquelme again.

You replied:

@ Barcelonista,

Either you're wrong or the rest of the world is wrong.

And the discussion pretty much ended there on your part.

Anyway, i don't necessarily agree with the ranking in the list. There 'll always be some bias (precisely y CR's so high up) in any voting-based system.

Yeah, nice argument. Real Madrid fans will say the same about Messi's inclusion there: "massive bias". You're using a list to prove your argument but disagree with another name on it you don't like to see there and claim the list also contains bias. What kind of logic is that? Cherry picking? If the list has names on it because of bias, it is not credible to prove a point. Simple as. Otherwise I will use your own logic and claim Messi is there because of bias as well and we won't reach anything.

Oh, and "the many gentlemen" your talking about are the likes who are named "Het_fenomeen_Messi" and are calling Xavi overrated. Or another gentleman calling Ronaldo an underrated playmaker. Poor attempt to try and prove you are right. How many on this forum agree with your viewpoint of Dzeko again? No one? Ok, surely you're arguments must be bollocks then. Because there are more posters who disagree with you than the other way round. Was that your logic?

 

[zanela]

My first post in length has already addressed the subject. Every post that followed not authored by yourself have all concurred or validated my position. You say verticality cannot be deemed playmaking, when it is widely accepted it can be.


Madrid fans may argue about Leo's ranking on such a list, but not his inclusion. Likewise, a lot of culés including myself (although i've said he should be no where near such a list) have questioned CR's ranking on it, as we think there are alot more deserving ones who should be above him. But he still qualifies as a playmaker. He's just not good.
The fundamentals in the list in question hasn't been tampered with. They can all be considered as playmakers. Except some player bias has influenced the final standings.

Oh, and "the many gentlemen" your talking about are the likes who are named "Het_fenomeen_Messi" and are calling Xavi overrated. Poor attempt to try and prove you are right. How many on this forum agree with your viewpoint of Dzeko again? No one? Ok, surely you're arguments must be bollocks then. Because there are more posters who disagree with you than the other way round. Was that your logic?

You're contesting a universal football definition, i'm arguing over a player's quality. I think there is a difference. I'm operating within the accepted norms.

 

[Elite-BkD]

Iniesta as good as he is and i'm a big fan, is at the moment 3rd. Messi's vision, game reading(even from wide areas) and spreading play is a tad better. I would've said Iniesta's passing is better couple of seasons ago, but Leo's accuracy and range has greatly improved to that point it has surpassed Casper's.

What?!? That's crazy talk...Messi obviously has an edge athletically but in terms of ball control and passing he's nowhere near as consistent and a little less talented than Iniesta. Iniesta passes more accurately, plays off both feet and has the most ridiculous blind passing around. Iniesta's also better at reading the game, no worse than Xavi at that.