10 - Lionel Messi - v1

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beautifulgame

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Zidane and Luis Enrique put it best: to be recognized as the best player in the world you have to be play on the big stage to be acknowledged. From there, it comes down to a mixture of performances and trophies won by the player. As we all know, in a world cup year the trophy variable is given even more weight.

Now, whereas for me--I'm sure other footballers will agree--the the best player in the world is acknowledged for his football, plain and simple. That of course would be Leo.

However, since the definitive qualities for the Balon d'Or are more concerned with achievements in professional terms, then Wesley or Arjen may rightly take it from Messi.



Takethattakethattakethat --http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgmlNLCitE
 
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yusuf

Yusuf Islam
That is the point, ridiculous that people think only attacking minded footballers should win the award, but imo Gigi should have won in '06.

i did not say only attack minded player can get it, just a CB who played in the most defensive team in history who has nothing to do but hold the line, buffon would have been a much better choice i agree.
 

Nani17

New member
Love watching Leo Messi play. Remember seeing him when he made his debut, and was telling my mates this lad will be special. Scary to think that he could become even better considering how young he is.
 

zanela

Senior Member
Yeah I think wrote that pretty wierd, but the point is that the reason Messi is Messi is that he can take the ball, run past everyone, and place it in the corner.

You seriously can't expect a getafe from him every match. Thts ridiculous. And to be fair to him, he did execute a few successful dribbles while the others suffered due to a variety of reasons - some his own fault, the others being crowded out in the final third owing to either lack of options or bad positioning of his teammates upfront.

Without the ball, he is very stationary (seriously, check his stats), and as playmaker he his pretty good but not godlike.

I dont 've to chck some stupid stats to disagree on the very stationary part. You probably mean Zlatan, certainly not messi. You dont score and assist consistently without movement off the ball. The boy also has good workrate and a lot of the time you can see him trackback to help his team regain possesion. Hes proactive and very agile off the ball and i've followed the player since he appeared on our first team to tell you that. Sometimes, he does appear sluggish but thats usually towards the end when hes tiring out. And for someone who has the attack build ard him, both Arg and Barca, you're meant to be on ur toe always making good movement/runs to recieve the ball when you dont 've it. So to suggest hes very stationary is ludicrous.

As for playmaking, no one suggested hes godlike to begin with. Hes no Xavi but hes still quality. Hes been playing further up the pitch under Pep which limits this aspect of his game, but prior to that his playmaking skills was more on display. He has good passing range, vision and can suprise the defenses with quality through balls and defense splitting passes from midfield. As can be seen in this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIEpqMwCbk

Now for his performance at this WC. One needs to factor the role he played for his team and tht was of a central playmaker. He had to shoulder all the creative burden and tht in a disorganised and tactless Argentina, much thanks to Maradona. Plus, him acting as a lone creative threat for his team meant it was easier to close him down. Regardless, he started a lot of the attacks and played a part in most Argentine goals. You can't be creating and finishing at the same time. How many goals has Xavi scored so far? Leo came close to scoring on a few of occasions but was unlucky. But tht instead helped his teammates to score. How much of a difference does it make had he been lucky on a couple of accasions wherein the ball had gone in instead of hitting the post. His role was to make the team play and win and he did that. Whether it was by his own goals or his teammates via his creation, its irrelevant.
He was given a specific role and he executed it to his best. A job well done in my book.

And you can't compare him with ronaldo and rooney who either had a proper midfield or good tactician managing them. Hardly can be said for Leo who not only had to play in midfield but was let down by the incomptency of his manager and teammates.
You want to see the real messi, give him a proper midfield and see him work his magic.
(ala Olympics '08)

As for the FIFA award. I couldn't give a toss about it. He can't be winning every bloody year. We dont need some golden ball as a confirmation of his quality and wht hes capable when hes sure to win many laurels in the future. So the world wont end if he doesn't win every year. Some culés are way too obsessed with these individual awards. Its like Leo wont be Leo if he doesn't win the fuckin Ballon d'Or again this year. Get over it!

So when his dribbling raides doesnt work, he is simply not very spectaculair.

If someone else did everything he does outside his dribbles, it would 've been recognised but since its messi, one always associate dribbles with him. His dribbling is so spectacular everything else he does despite its quality gets overlooked.
 

Trillske

New member
I´ll start here, because I pretty much aggre with this part.
If someone else did everything he does outside his dribbles, it would 've been recognised but since its messi, one always associate dribbles with him. His dribbling is so spectacular everything else he does despite its quality gets overlooked.

U seriously can't expect a getafe from him every match. Thts ridiculous. And to be fair to him, he did execute a few successful dribbles while the others suffered due to a variety of reasons - some his own fault, the others being crowded out in the final third owing to either lack of options or bad positioning of his teammates upfront.
Lets for example say that Messi was unknown before the world cup. We´d probably look at him thinking "damn, he shows promise, and only 23 yers old". I definatly would. But in the light of "best player in the world" with some people hinting at "best ever", it just wasnt good enough. He was not close to be the player of the tournament or anything, and he didnt score - despite having the chanses to do so.



I dont 've to chck some stupid stats to disagree on the very stationary part. You probably mean Zlatan, certainly not messi.
Read the rest but highlighted this because I think it is interesting - because the Zlatan comparrison is what made me realize he was pretty stationary (very might have been too much).
Some game, maybe one of the Inter games, the Zlatan thread got wild because people thought he was so damn lazy, and then where shown stats where Zlatan run less than Valdes to really light it on fire.
Turns out it was a very fabricated view; Zlatan was subbed in 60´ or something. Some other people looked into it, and it turns, should he have played the whole game at the same tempo, he´d have run more than Messi.
I thought that sounded extreme, but more sources said the same thing, and instead I started watching Messi, and yeah - he is very stationary when the ball is not his, or just have been, or is very close.
What I saw in the Germany game, I´ve definatly seen before.

This is not to say its a bad thing though. Cant really tell - im not good enough at fotball to really know. He is super explosive with the ball, and maybe that woudnt be as effective if he ran like his butt was on fire when he didnt have it (if nothing else, he´d be tired).

What it does say however, is he is less than spectaculair without the ball surounding him, so when those explosive runs and dribblings are not there, is like he is not there (Curious note: seriously, I missed first half of one of the games, think it was the 1/8, and in second half I asked two of my friends how Messi had performed. They answered they hadnt seen him for 20 mins, and thought he was subbed or something. I looked and looked but didnt see him either. 20 or 30 minutes later, though, the commentators started to say the same thing "where is messi..?". Turns out, though, he was on the field.)




As for playmaking, no one suggested hes godlike to begin with. Hes no Xavi but hes still quality. Hes been playing further up the pitch under Pep which limits this aspect of his game, but prior to that his playmaking skills was more on display. He has good passing range, vision and can suprise the defenses with quality through balls and defense splitting passes from midfield. As can be seen in this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIEpqMwCbk
Again, he is still "good". He is just no "god", or "messi", or "best ever", or anything close to that as pure playmaker in my world.

Now for his performance at this WC. One needs to factor the role he played for his team and tht was of a central playmaker. He had to shoulder all the creative burden and tht in a disorganised and tactless Argentina, much thanks to Maradona. Plus, him acting as a lone creative threat for his team meant it was easier to close him down. Regardless, he started a lot of the attacks and played a part in most Argentine goals. You can't be creating and finishing at the same time. How many goals has Xavi scored so far? Leo came close to scoring on a few of occasions but was unlucky. But tht instead helped his teammates to score. How much of a difference does it make had he been lucky on a couple of accasions wherein the ball had gone in instead of hitting the post. His role was to make the team play and win and he did that. Whether it was by his own goals or his teammates via his creation, its irrelevant.
He was given a specific role and he executed it to his best. A job well done in my book.
Here our views are really different. I simply think this WC was a real failiure for Messi.
He was put under a huge amount of pressure, more pressure than any other player there (the new Maradona and what not), but that still dont take away the fact that he didnt deliver under the pressure - he didnt do a Maradona and he was never even close of doing it either.

Is it unfair? Maybe. The same way it was unfair of people to scream "best player ever!" after the Arsenal performance, and the same way it was unfair to put a 23 year old in the role of saviour to begin with. Messi would have to carry Argentina on his shoulders for the WC win to really impress under the circumstances, and maybe he´d get away with beeing like runner up after Villa or something for best player of the tournament. But zero goals and zero performance when the competition got really tough? No, that just cant be what people expected. However, unlike guys like Rooney or Ronaldo, people dont hate him. The feelings are probably more of sympathy than anything else.
 

FCBarca

Mike the Knife
Cannot have a real discussion/debate about Leo at the WC let alone indulge in hypotheticals were he an unknown with accepting one very fundamental truth/fact...Kid was marked out of matches with more defenders than any other player at the WC
 

Stins

New member
Messi is always marked. It's not like it's some new experience to him. He'd still dribble 3 guys before getting stuck on the 4th way too often. That's something he needs to work on in order to improve. Pass sooner.
 

barca96

New member
Messi is always marked. It's not like it's some new experience to him. He'd still dribble 3 guys before getting stuck on the 4th way too often. That's something he needs to work on in order to improve. Pass sooner.

yeah i thought the same too. but then he had no one to pass to before he goes on a dribble.
they are not moving so much the arg attack line. they are kinda static.
they all wait for messi to do some magical run all the time.
tevez runs a lot, but he doesnt offer himself or making runs for messi to pass.

trillske, ur contradicting your self in the same post!
 

Stins

New member
yeah i thought the same too. but then he had no one to pass to before he goes on a dribble.
they are not moving so much the arg attack line. they are kinda static.
they all wait for messi to do some magical run all the time.
tevez runs a lot, but he doesnt offer himself or making runs for messi to pass.

The thing is that Messi often do just run straight to the goal without passing, and his fellow team mates learn to not expect a pass. That's also something that the opposing defenses learn. Which is why they can afford sending 4 players to stop him. Because they basically only have Messi to worry about when he starts his runs.

I've done alot of sports and played with the kind of players who are better than everyone else, who can dribble an entire defense, but when you after awhile learn that said person won't pass, you basically just stand on the side watching. This is where Messi is about to end up.

Unless he elevates his game, and looks up when the 4th player is heading his way, get his teammates involved and makes that opening pass.
 

barca96

New member
The thing is that Messi often do just run straight to the goal without passing, and his fellow team mates learn to not expect a pass. That's also something that the opposing defenses learn. Which is why they can afford sending 4 players to stop him. Because they basically only have Messi to worry about when he starts his runs.

I've done alot of sports and played with the kind of players who are better than everyone else, who can dribble an entire defense, but when you after awhile learn that said person won't pass, you basically just stand on the side watching. This is where Messi is about to end up.

Unless he elevates his game, and looks up when the 4th player is heading his way, get his teammates involved and makes that opening pass.

yup you're right. but as a player you should always anticipate.
thats the difference between barca and argentina.
here you have xavi, iniesta anticipating and making runs but in the NT, they all just stand and watch.

I´ll start here, because I pretty much aggre with this part.Lets for example say that Messi was unknown before the world cup. We´d probably look at him thinking "damn, he shows promise, and only 23 yers old". I definatly would.

Here our views are really different. I simply think this WC was a real failiure for Messi.

yes...
 

evilhita666

Barçapocalypse NOW!
The boy also has good workrate and a lot of the time you can see him trackback to help his team regain possesion. Hes proactive and very agile off the ball and i've followed the player since he appeared on our first team to tell you that.

You know zanela, you're right about that when he plays for Barça... But he didn't do it for his NT, I'm not questioning his heart or devotion to his country, I just found it weird, I don't know if he was following orders from Maradona, or if he was tired, but he surely didn't track back as much as he does for us... Obviously, I'm not saying this was the cause of crashing out of the world cup, just a funny fact of sorts...
 

zanela

Senior Member
@ Trillske,

I can't account for other's comments. I've never claimed Messi as the "best ever" or "godlike pure playmaker" when its obvious he isn't. I doubt anyone 've claimed the latter anyway. He can't act as the lone playmaker against top class opposition. He needs someone who can dictate the rhythm and distribute play, so he is allowed more freedom to wreck havoc against the oppositions defenses and concentrate on the goal scoring part like he does for us. Its unrealistic for anyone to expect Messi to play like the "best player in the world" with the role he was delegated at the WCs. Regardless, he did fairly well at the group stages but failed when the comp got tougher. Messi can only do so much being played out of position with no proper tactics and support. And tht being glaringly obvious against Germany. You need an organised and proper system to showcase your very best and Messi is no exception. As a forward, he is worldclass, as CAM he is good...but you can't expect him to shoulder all the creative burden AND play stellar against the very quality sides. It won't happen. Thts wht you saw in the K.Os. And its not his fault he was used wrongly. Besides, its collective team play tht wins you honours at the highest level not individuals. I doubt even a ronaldo, rooney, kaka, robben etc would've made much difference if put in the same place. Any sensible and objective footie fan would take in to account all the circumstances before branding him a worldcup failure. He had a decent campaign. Even Maradona was 26 when he won the WC. Leo needs a bit more work to do before he gets there.

As for the Zlatan and Leo comparison. Tht one example alone don't support your argument. Over a season, i bet he covers more ground than Zlatan. Besides, the difference between the two is "intelligent movement", so even if he ran less than Zlatan in a match or two, his runs were more productive while the Swede basically impedes and blocks others way and offers no option to his teammates. I still hold the view that Leo isn't stationary off the ball.

You know zanela, you're right about that when he plays for Barça... But he didn't do it for his NT, I'm not questioning his heart or devotion to his country, I just found it weird, I don't know if he was following orders from Maradona, or if he was tired, but he surely didn't track back as much as he does for us... Obviously, I'm not saying this was the cause of crashing out of the world cup, just a funny fact of sorts...

Again comes down to how he is used in either teams plus the nature of the teamplay. Barca is all about collective pressing and he does his part. Also he is supported by Xaviesta in midfield which means when he isn't fed in the final third he can afford to trackback. There are chances of less burnout so early in the game. With Argentina if you saw he started brightly and by the half he faded away. He had to constantly keep dropping in to midfield to collect the ball and bring it to his attackers, he was basically the main man for everything constructive in the opposition's half. The boy was clearly not enjoying his role. So its understandable if he looked sluggish after a point. Its not like i'm making excuses for him. But you can't make a fair assessment without considering the broader picture.
Also he came in to the WCs having played the max in his club career (53 matches). So he was jaded and then Maradona decided to make him his country's saviour. Thts asking a bit too much from a 23y.o.
 
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