10 - Lionel Messi - v1

Status
Not open for further replies.

OriginalThinking

New member
No, I agree with you. What I'm saying is that there are a few people out there with the potential to be geniuses, not everybody could be. What's improved is the training regime, the knowledge about what works and what doesn't, strategies for taking on defenders, etc. I can't prove it, but I honestly think that allows a person with amazing potential (like David Villa) to be as good as someone with genius potential, but less footballing knowledge, like Pele.

Chess is a good example. I guarantee any of the top grandmasters of today would beat Capablanca, or Fischer. They would see a move and be like "i've seen that move, I know what to expect." The point is Bobby Fischer probably invented that move.

Chess isn't a perfect fit for football - in your example the Chess player would be the football coach and the players the pawns. So yes coaches will recognise tactics that have been played before and can formulate plans against those formations based on experience, practice and study. However the point of genius is that it is often unpredictable or adapts constantly. As soon as Fischer realised that the old tricks weren't effective any more he'd come up with new ones - that is the difference in genius. In the same way that a genius coach (like Ferguson) will adapt over time.

Why is it that Messi was better than Henry at his time in Barca for example? Both had probably put in the same level of practice growing up, but Henry actually had way more experience at the top level of the game and had played under Wenger at his peak. Yet despite these advantages Messi was clearly the better player. He shouldn't have been according to your logic.. Henry's physique is clearly better suited to modern football. He's taller, stronger, more naturally athletic. Yet Messi was a more efficient finisher, created more chances for Barca and was more likely to beat his man. The difference between Messi and Henry is that despite all his experience Henry's natural talent was much less than Messi's - 7 years of extra experience, 7 years of extra coaching could only take him so far. The same goes for Pele. A 22 year old Pele playing today with less footballing knowledge than Villa would still be better than him. Experience and practice can only take you so far.

Genius can't simply be trained, it can't be drummed in - otherwise every player coming out of La Masia would have Messi levels of talent as they all put in the same level of practise, have the same coaches, would all have been trained on how to beat a man, the best place to position themselves to defend...yet despite all this only a select few make it to the highest level. If the odds are, as they say even and everyone is given the same level of training then how can you explain this except for god given natural talent making a huge difference?

Or is your argument that if Villa had trained twice as hard as Messi from birth, coached personally by Cruyff for 20 years then he might be as good as Messi? I doubt physically it would even be possible and Jordi was clearly not a patch on his old man, despite having him around most of his life. It just doesn't work like that.
 
Last edited:

Hatem Ben Arfa

New member
Chess isn't a perfect fit for football - in your example the Chess player would be the football coach and the players the pawns. So yes coaches will recognise tactics that have been played before and can formulate plans against those formations based on experience, practice and study. However the point of genius is that it is often unpredictable or adapts constantly. As soon as Fischer realised that the old tricks weren't effective any more he'd come up with new ones - that is the difference in genius. In the same way that a genius coach (like Ferguson) will adapt over time.

Why is it that Messi was better than Henry at his time in Barca for example? Both had probably put in the same level of practice growing up, but Henry actually had way more experience at the top level of the game and had played under Wenger at his peak. Yet despite these advantages Messi was clearly the better player. He shouldn't have been according to your logic.. Henry's physique is clearly better suited to modern football. He's taller, stronger, more naturally athletic. Yet Messi was a more efficient finisher, created more chances for Barca and was more likely to beat his man. The difference between Messi and Henry is that despite all his experience Henry's natural talent was much less than Messi's - 7 years of extra experience, 7 years of extra coaching could only take him so far. The same goes for Pele. A 22 year old Pele playing today with less footballing knowledge than Villa would still be better than him. Experience and practice can only take you so far.

Genius can't simply be trained, it can't be drummed in - otherwise every player coming out of La Masia would have Messi levels of talent as they all put in the same level of practise, have the same coaches, would all have been trained on how to beat a man, the best place to position themselves to defend...yet despite all this only a select few make it to the highest level. If the odds are, as they say even and everyone is given the same level of training then how can you explain this except for god given natural talent making a huge difference?

Or is your argument that if Villa had trained twice as hard as Messi from birth, coached personally by Cruyff for 20 years then he might be as good as Messi? I doubt physically it would even be possible and Jordi was clearly not a patch on his old man, despite having him around most of his life. It just doesn't work like that.

:worthy:

Excellent Post!

Echoes my sentiments exactly.
 
Last edited:
T

tariqo

Guest
can we just stop talking about fucking logic please

i just posted some Gif & no1 talk about it because this logic !!!!

fuc pele & the rest, this is messi's thread guys ^_^


t6j38555.gif


a taekwondo by Carvalho !!!!!!!& look to his reaction after that


YOw38555.gif


how many players went to stop him ?
 

Hatem Ben Arfa

New member
can we just stop talking about fucking logic please

i just posted some Gif & no1 talk about it because this logic !!!!

fuc pele & the rest, this is messi's thread guys ^_^


t6j38555.gif


a taekwondo by Carvalho !!!!!!!& look to his reaction after that


YOw38555.gif


how many players went to stop him ?

People are talking about it because it is a very engaging topic of conversation and one that involves Messi obviously.

Yess Messi gets kicked but not as bad as Pele did, youtube Pele fouls and you will see he was routinely assaulted, that is how they defended in Brazilian league back in those days. Something tells me that is a lot harder to overcome as the referees hardly ever sent those defenders off for their assaults.

how many players want to stop Pele, watch any documentary and you will see they are equally comaparable.
 
T

tariqo

Guest
People are talking about it because it is a very engaging topic of conversation and one that involves Messi obviously.

Yess Messi gets kicked but not as bad as Pele did, youtube Pele fouls and you will see he was routinely assaulted, that is how they defended in Brazilian league back in those days. Something tells me that is a lot harder to overcome as the referees hardly ever sent those defenders off for their assaults.

how many players want to stop Pele, watch any documentary and you will see they are equally comaparable.


so, because he got kicked too much I must call him the greatest:lol:

pele is overrated
he played in 4 world cups
scored only 12 , 1 of these goals against wales :lol:

like what i said be4

pele can't be in top 30 of all time​
 
M

mitkoa7x

Guest
If Pele plays today he will be below average, why cant he accept that the game changed ALOT since when he was playing. Its not possible to score ~1000 goals in a pro league today, frankly I dont think even 500 is possible...
 

Hatem Ben Arfa

New member
so, because he got kicked too much I must call him the greatest:lol:

pele is overrated
he played in 4 world cups
scored only 12 , 1 of these goals against wales :lol:

like what i said be4

pele can't be in top 30 of all time​

No, I only bring up the assautls on the pitch he had to put up with in retort to a certain poster who claims defending was bad in the Brazilian league and therefore Pele's goals mean nothing.

And what a foolish comment that is, 'pele can't be in the top 30 of all time'. That comment really doesn't reflect well on you at all.
 

gingerless

Active member
stfu about x player vs x player and form an angry bandwagon mob for this gif already

t6j38555.gif


here, i'll start.

WHAT A CUNT, THIS SHIT IS OUTRAGIOUS
 

Hatem Ben Arfa

New member
If Pele plays today he will be below average, why cant he accept that the game changed ALOT since when he was playing. Its not possible to score ~1000 goals in a pro league today, frankly I dont think even 500 is possible...

sorry but if 16 year old Pele was playing today with todays training methods, medicine and fitness regimes he would still go on to be considered one of the greatest ever.
 
T

tariqo

Guest
No, I only bring up the assautls on the pitch he had to put up with in retort to a certain poster who claims defending was bad in the Brazilian league and therefore Pele's goals mean nothing.

And what a foolish comment that is, 'pele can't be in the top 30 of all time'. That comment really doesn't reflect well on you at all.

thats what i believe man

pele is overrated , the fifa's media making a big deal of him while doesn't deserved it at all
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Home of Barca Fans

Top