10 - Lionel Messi - v1

[zanela]

@Barcelonista,

A traditional #10 won't bring in consistency to Argentina, it'll certainly free up Messi, who can then concentrate more on the final-product. But unless there is consistency in structure, style and personnel established, a certain playmaking addition won't be much help. Sabella keeps varying his formation and shows a strong Estudiantes bias in his Team selection. This means players who get picked are all not up to the mark. There is no team chemistry whatsoever. You can throw Riquelme in there, but he too is reliant on Midfield service. They need a functioning partnership of a Mascherano and Banega/Gago/any quality CM. That hasn't happened yet. You can't build on weak base. And then you've mindless selfish play from C.midfield and wings. How'll an enganche rectify that? You do realize a #10 works within a system, for him to operate efficiently, he needs everyone else to work with him towards a common purpose. Argentina's inconsistency is not the lack of a playmaker, but the difficulty in getting them all to play as a team.

 

[Metaphysical]

firstly, the article is 6 months old, it's out of date.

secondly, the man said Riquelme failed to convince.

Riquelme.

thirdly, he also said Messi doesn't come deep to pick the ball up for Barcelona, when he does that all the time.

his opinion on this subject = invalidated

it's lazy journalism. "OH ARGENTINA NEED A #10!" no, Argentina need some defenders and a #5 more than anything. the more attacking half of things isn't where their problem is. it appears that way, but everything stems from the defence being so poor - as that keeps the team too spaced out vertically and yet squashed in horizontally. basically the opposite of what it should be.

 

[beautifulgame]

firstly, the article is 6 months old, it's out of date.

secondly, the man said Riquelme failed to convince.

Riquelme.

thirdly, he also said Messi doesn't come deep to pick the ball up for Barcelona, when he does that all the time.

his opinion on this subject = invalidated

it's lazy journalism. "OH ARGENTINA NEED A #10!" no, Argentina need some defenders and a #5 more than anything. the more attacking half of things isn't where their problem is. it appears that way, but everything stems from the defence being so poor - as that keeps the team too spaced out vertically and yet squashed in horizontally. basically the opposite of what it should be.

Thank you. I was about to have at his post until I saw your response.

Kinda like you said, Argentina don't need a playmaker, Argentina need to learn to play as a team and to patch up the defense.

Every team doesn't need an f'n Xavi clone to win for gods sake.

 

[La Furia]

firstly, the article is 6 months old, it's out of date.

secondly, the man said Riquelme failed to convince.

Riquelme.

thirdly, he also said Messi doesn't come deep to pick the ball up for Barcelona, when he does that all the time.

his opinion on this subject = invalidated

it's lazy journalism. "OH ARGENTINA NEED A #10!" no, Argentina need some defenders and a #5 more than anything. the more attacking half of things isn't where their problem is. it appears that way, but everything stems from the defence being so poor - as that keeps the team too spaced out vertically and yet squashed in horizontally. basically the opposite of what it should be.

It seems to me that article is relying on the tired anglo fallacy that Maradona won it in 86 by himself, and therefore everything the Argentine NT has done since then can be judged entirely on their #10.

I guess that sort of logic made a bit more sense when Riquelme was around, because the attack actually did have to be build around Riquelme because he demanded full control of the tempo and could not speed things up.

I don't think Messi is blameless, but this Argentine team is a fucking mess, more so because of atrocious defense, erratic finishers and nobody knowing or refusing to settle down on their role.

As much as I hate Bilardo, he understood that for Maradona to be free (Besides like Messi, I don't think Maradona would function as a Xavi clone), there would need to be brutal efficiency around him. Pekerman was much less cynical but still build around his "playmakers". If the #10 is the centre of attention it's because he's what the identity is built around, not that everything should be summed up by one player. In this instance Argentina hasn't even built around Messi besides lazily implementing Barca-esque formations that don't fit the personnel.

 

[lessthanjake]

I know there's a ton more to playmaking than making assists, but I think this video is telling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6jSt_4nZp0

A majority of Messi's assists this season have not come at the end of some penetrating run, but rather were creative passes taken from outside the box without much movement beforehand. Those are the assists of a playmaker. The assists that have come at the end of a run were almost entirely from runs that started around the half-way line. I would argue that these are also the assists of a playmaker. The only assists in that video that I don't think were 'playmaker' assists were #5 and #8. But 12 playmaker assists in half a season is pretty good evidence of being a playmaker.

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyHKr8yccqs


These are his assists from last year. While some of them are playmaker assists, I would say that the majority are not. To me, this demonstrates a change in Messi's play from last year to this year. And I think the difference would be even more stark if we compared this year to years even further in the past.

 

[OriginalThinking]

A lot of this debate seems to filter around what the definition of a playmaker is;

Is a playmaker the player who sets the tempo of the game, who uses passes to set the team moving forward, switches play and links all parts of the team together (defence, midfield, attack)?

Or is a playmaker someone who provides a lot of assists, creates opportunities to score for their team mates and threads lots of through balls?

If it is the former then in Barcelona Messi isn't the playmaker. It's Xavi. That isn't to say that Messi couldn't play that role but why would you need him to when you have Xavi or Iniesta there already? Why would you take the clubs best finisher and most lethal dribbler in the last 1/3rd of the field and move him to a semi-permanent deeper role? You wouldn't unless your club didn't have someone of the quality/calibre of Xavi to feed Messi. If Maradona were at Barca now at age 26, he'd be playing the exact same role Messi plays now. Sure he'd come deep as Messi does from time to time to try to initiate moves and drag the opposition team out of shape. But he wouldn't be the playmaker because he has a teamate who can already do that. He'd by higher up the pitch, closer to goal where he only has to beat one or two players to get a shot off not having to beat 4 players and deal with being pushed wider and wider just to get past the opposition into an area where he'd be less effective. Messi plays where he plays and how he plays because Pep understands that you put your most lethal finisher and best dribbler as close to the goal as possible. Xavi couldn't play in Messi's position and neither could Iniesta and be anywhere near as effective. Brilliant players, but neither have the finishing skills, nor the muscularity and balance that is required in the last 1/3rd of the bitch to play through the middle of tight defences where there is little space and against 6 foot something defenders. Iniesta's dribbling and fleet of foot is right up there with Messi but his balance under pressure, his finishing under pressure and his ability to accelerate from 0-100 to give him an extra yard just aren't there. In a midfield where there is more space to move and the pressure is a little less intense Iniesta and Xavi excel. This is what makes Messi special. Messi could play the Inesta or Xavi role too. I won't say he'd necessarily play it as well - But much better than vice versa. Unfortunately Messi doesn't have those players behind him in Argentina. He doesn't even have the benefit of organisation in defence which is why when you watch Messi play for Argentina he will go deeper and deeper and become more playmaker esque because the current team doesn't have anyone who has fully stepped up to the plate. This results in far less goals for Argentina than for Barcelona. In 1986 (A Maradona who is 2 years older than Messi and had a poor 82 world up after he had let his temper get the better of him) had an Argentina side who if not full of the most technically gifted players had a side who were well organised, disciplined and aggressive. A side which wasn't going to score goals for fun, but weren't going to concede many either. In this environment Maradona thrived because he had the platform to go forward and a structure where every man knew his place in the team and performed that role well. Argentina haven't had that since the Copa America in 2007. A tournament in which Messi was excellent - he couldn't do much in the final against Brazil who under Dunga were organised, disciplined and had quality in forward positions (Not unlike Argentina 86 - It may not have pleased the Samba purists but it was effective). Since then Argentina have never convinced organisationally or defensively and have suffered for it. Barcelona win titles under Pep not just because of how many goals they score but how few they concede. To suggest that Messi is somehow a failure or even a lesser player than Maradona at this stage in his career is fallacy.

And if you define a playmaker as the latter, well yes Messi is a playmaker and a brilliant one at that!

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

Messi often starts and finishes moves/goals. Says it all

 

[jayzsa]

A lot of this debate seems to filter around what the definition of a playmaker is;

Is a playmaker the player who sets the tempo of the game, who uses passes to set the team moving forward, switches play and links all parts of the team together (defence, midfield, attack)?

Or is a playmaker someone who provides a lot of assists, creates opportunities to score for their team mates and threads lots of through balls?

If it is the former then in Barcelona Messi isn't the playmaker. It's Xavi. That isn't to say that Messi couldn't play that role but why would you need him to when you have Xavi or Iniesta there already? Why would you take the clubs best finisher and most lethal dribbler in the last 1/3rd of the field and move him to a semi-permanent deeper role? You wouldn't unless your club didn't have someone of the quality/calibre of Xavi to feed Messi. If Maradona were at Barca now at age 26, he'd be playing the exact same role Messi plays now. Sure he'd come deep as Messi does from time to time to try to initiate moves and drag the opposition team out of shape. But he wouldn't be the playmaker because he has a teamate who can already do that. He'd by higher up the pitch, closer to goal where he only has to beat one or two players to get a shot off not having to beat 4 players and deal with being pushed wider and wider just to get past the opposition into an area where he'd be less effective. Messi plays where he plays and how he plays because Pep understands that you put your most lethal finisher and best dribbler as close to the goal as possible. Xavi couldn't play in Messi's position and neither could Iniesta and be anywhere near as effective. Brilliant players, but neither have the finishing skills, nor the muscularity and balance that is required in the last 1/3rd of the bitch to play through the middle of tight defences where there is little space and against 6 foot something defenders. Iniesta's dribbling and fleet of foot is right up there with Messi but his balance under pressure, his finishing under pressure and his ability to accelerate from 0-100 to give him an extra yard just aren't there. In a midfield where there is more space to move and the pressure is a little less intense Iniesta and Xavi excel. This is what makes Messi special. Messi could play the Inesta or Xavi role too. I won't say he'd necessarily play it as well - But much better than vice versa. Unfortunately Messi doesn't have those players behind him in Argentina. He doesn't even have the benefit of organisation in defence which is why when you watch Messi play for Argentina he will go deeper and deeper and become more playmaker esque because the current team doesn't have anyone who has fully stepped up to the plate. This results in far less goals for Argentina than for Barcelona. In 1986 (A Maradona who is 2 years older than Messi and had a poor 82 world up after he had let his temper get the better of him) had an Argentina side who if not full of the most technically gifted players had a side who were well organised, disciplined and aggressive. A side which wasn't going to score goals for fun, but weren't going to concede many either. In this environment Maradona thrived because he had the platform to go forward and a structure where every man knew his place in the team and performed that role well. Argentina haven't had that since the Copa America in 2007. A tournament in which Messi was excellent - he couldn't do much in the final against Brazil who under Dunga were organised, disciplined and had quality in forward positions (Not unlike Argentina 86 - It may not have pleased the Samba purists but it was effective). Since then Argentina have never convinced organisationally or defensively and have suffered for it. Barcelona win titles under Pep not just because of how many goals they score but how few they concede. To suggest that Messi is somehow a failure or even a lesser player than Maradona at this stage in his career is fallacy.

And if you define a playmaker as the latter, well yes Messi is a playmaker and a brilliant one at that!

This is basically it, the definition playmaker is not very accurate

 

[mixer]

This conversation does not make sense, beacuse Messi is all in!

 

[ricknattery]

Messi plays where he plays and how he plays because Pep understands that you put your most lethal finisher and best dribbler as close to the goal as possible. Xavi couldn't play in Messi's position and neither could Iniesta and be anywhere near as effective....Messi could play the Inesta or Xavi role too. I won't say he'd necessarily play it as well - But much better than vice versa.

Tha'ts the reason why Messi is on a league of his own
Excelent post arty1:

 

[Caramel]

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

http://98.139.168.220/babelfish/tra...de-ganar-cinco-seis-siete-balones-oro-1309721

 

[ammarfcb]

not even a barca shirt can make ronaldo look stright

 

[mitkoa7x]

http://98.139.168.220/babelfish/tra...de-ganar-cinco-seis-siete-balones-oro-1309721

this!

 

[La LL]