10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[Xtroverto]

Not to discredit Messi but I am honestly curious as to why some La Liga defenders are so shit. That 2nd Messi goal against Mallorca would never have happened against Celtic or Chelsea. Is it that Celtic and Chelsea were playing with more passion because it was the Champions League or are their defenders just more willing to do last ditch tackles? On that 2nd Messi goal, the defenders didn't even try to dive in to block it. I know Messi could have easily just faked a shot and then still scored but the defenders often don't seem to care to give their all.

Is is simply a matter of accumulation, for that goal that he scored against Mallorca there are probably dosses of attempts before that were blocked, sooner or later with enough persistence Messi scores. Many of his goals can be argued for are the result of lackluster defending, but it is simply the result of persistence from Messi. If we did go through every opportunity that he misses because of good defending, the picture change, but we only remember the goals and the bad defending.

 

[MMKa]

joiurnalists, coaches and national team captains all for for top 3. fist gets 5 points, second 3 and third 1 and they later sum this all up. right?

And, journalists, coaches and captains all have 1/3 weight in final count. If there are 100 coaches, 100 captains and 200 journalist votes, the numbers first get levelled; in this situation, one journalist vote is worth only 0.5 times captain vote.

When I first found it I nearly cried No but it is a fantastic account of his statistics. You can even click on each match to see who he assisted etc.

I love the favourite opponents section. You can even see his stats from 'Messi and friends' games

Thanks. And, you can not only see games Messi played but also those he didn't... (Link "complete")


For stats discussion: Messi had 24+17 last season after 22 games. This season: 25+7. But now team has more wins.

 

[Kerrybai]

Did anyone else notice tho that Messi is not as sharp this season as he was last year? Noticable during play aswell as statistics, all his stats are quite lower compared to last year when you look at key passes per game, pass accuracy, dribbles per game ( only 3 compared to 6 last year, in CL even less than 2 ). Im wondering if it has to do with his son, expecting a son can put your mind off some things of course.

Are you comparing statistics just this same period last season or comparing his final year statistics to his performances so far? Messi was pretty quiet at this stage last year too. He will come alive in the second half of the season, although that's not to say he is playing poorly now.

 

[Patty2720]

Did anyone else notice tho that Messi is not as sharp this season as he was last year? Noticable during play aswell as statistics, all his stats are quite lower compared to last year when you look at key passes per game, pass accuracy, dribbles per game ( only 3 compared to 6 last year, in CL even less than 2 ). Im wondering if it has to do with his son, expecting a son can put your mind off some things of course.

Well, he scored 22 goals after just 17 games last season, this season he has 20, so no big difference there. After the first 11 games in La Liga he scored 14 last season, this season he has 15.

Note* after 17 games in La Liga last year he scored 17 goals, this time around he has scored 15 after just 11 games .. he'll score more than 50 goals in the league this year, I can feel it!

 

[Xtroverto]

Did anyone else notice tho that Messi is not as sharp this season as he was last year? Noticable during play aswell as statistics, all his stats are quite lower compared to last year when you look at key passes per game, pass accuracy, dribbles per game ( only 3 compared to 6 last year, in CL even less than 2 ). Im wondering if it has to do with his son, expecting a son can put your mind off some things of course.

Scoring 20 goals by mid November, to me is quite a feat. Maybe he is a bit less regular this start of the season, but it is the spring that matters anyway. We will see how many goals he eventually scores. With the twenty he has now, he is the first player in the club's history to score at least 20 goals for 5 consecutive seasons.

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

Messi will score at least 2 or 3 goals in the remaining Champions League group matches but when he really shines is the knockout stages(except against Chelsea's parked 747 when he was tired from carrying the team and had no help with scoring).

 

[MMKa]

Between November 2011 and October 2012 Messi has scored 84 goals. Which one is your favourite for FIFA Puskas Award (criteria: aesthetics, importance of match: nat>UCL>league, no luck, dates mentioned)?

I liked most the 2nd in FIFA Club World Cup or the 3rd against Brazil friendly. Ronaldinho-freekick was nice too.

Borrowed from jiopi:

 

[Clockwise]

joiurnalists, coaches and national team captains all for for top 3. fist gets 5 points, second 3 and third 1 and they later sum this all up. right?

you're right, Thanks ,man

 

[kroki22]

Messi will score at least 2 or 3 goals in the remaining Champions League group matches but when he really shines is the knockout stages(except against Chelsea's parked 747 when he was tired from carrying the team and had no help with scoring).

You write about the goals, but in the other thing he makes less that's true. less dribblings, less key passes.

 

[Dripsnis]

 

[Xtroverto]

Today I read the most bizarre argument in the Messi vs Pelé debate in the comment section in a news paper.

The arguments were basically these:

*Messi score even more than Pele did in his days!

*Messi plays in an overwhelmingly-dominant club in his league compared to Pele

The point being Pele had a harder time scoring goals than Messi has as he played in poor Santos and that Messi's stats are inflated thanks to Barcelona dominance.

I mean yea, sure

Okej, the first one Messi score even more than Pele did in his days

From 1957 to 1965 Pele played 350 official matches for Santos and scored 462 goals, that is 1.32 goals per game on average over a 9 season period. Messi will never ever come even close to this no matter what he does for the rest of his carrer.

Pele top 3 vs Messi top 3 goal scoring seasons (games/goals/average)

46/66/1.43
48/64/1.33
38/62/1.63

60/73/1.21
55/53/0.96
53/47/0.88

As we see, Messi is nowhere near Pele's numbers

Now the second argument:

Messi plays in an overwhelmingly-dominant club in his league compared to Pele

Okej, let see how Pele's Santos did

1958 Santos won the league (38 rounds) 29 wins 6 draws 3 losses. The team scored 143 goals, on average 3,76 goals per game.
1959 Santos 2nd in the league (38 rounds) 30 wins 3 draws 5 losses. The team scored 150 goals, on average 3,94 goals per game.
1960 Santos won the league (34 rounds) 22 wins 6 draws 6 losses. The team scored 100 goals, on average 2,94 goals per game.
1961 Santos won the league (30 rounds) 25 wins 3 draws 2 losses. The team scored 113 goals, on average 3,76 goals per game.
1962 Santos won the league (30 rounds) 23 wins 5 draws 2 losses. The team scored 102 goals, on average 3,40 goals per game.

That is 170 league games, 129 wins 23 draws and 18 losses, 76% win ratio, scoring on average 3.58 goals per game. If this is not an overwhelmingly-dominant club then I don't know what is?

And below Barcelona stats under Guardiola

152 league games, 116 wins 25 draws and 11 losses, 76% win ratio, scoring on average 2.71 goals per game.

As we see, Pele's Santos and Messi's Barcelona have the same win ratio but Pele's Santos scored on average almost 1 goal more per game.

Of the 608 goals by Santos 1958-1962, Pele scored 220, or 36%.
Of the 412 goals by Barcelona 2008-2012, Messi scored 138 or 33%

The stats are somewhat missleading as we compare Santos over 5 season with Barcelona over 4 seasons, but when this season is over we can go back and see.

 

[xaviniesta]

football have changed a lot in 40 years you know....just saying. those comparisons are never any good.

 

[jiopi]

I did era adjustment for Messi's, Pele's and Müller's best scoring seasons some time ago, which compares scorer to the average scorer of their era's. And even when Messi played more, which means less overall form or energy per match, his season was most impressive even GPG wise, compared to the average goal scorer. And during 2012 Messi has been even better goal scoring wise, than 11-12.

For methods used: http://king-football.com/bb/?p=446

 

[Xtroverto]

football have changed a lot in 40 years you know....just saying. those comparisons are never any good.

Of cause not, but they tell the true picture. There are persistent myths about Pelé being some kind of superhuman football god, carrying Santos on his back, in the same way there are the Maradona myths about him carrying Napoli around on his back, flourishing in the Messi vs Maradona debate. The reality of cause is a far more complex picture.

Anyway, I just used those stat to show that Santos was just as dominating back then as is Barcelona today. The difference is that many of the teams Santos faced back then are today playing in the 3rd, 4th and 5th tier of the Brazilian league structure.

 

[AzaR]

Not to discredit Messi but I am honestly curious as to why some La Liga defenders are so shit. That 2nd Messi goal against Mallorca would never have happened against Celtic or Chelsea. Is it that Celtic and Chelsea were playing with more passion because it was the Champions League or are their defenders just more willing to do last ditch tackles? On that 2nd Messi goal, the defenders didn't even try to dive in to block it. I know Messi could have easily just faked a shot and then still scored but the defenders often don't seem to care to give their all.

No point comparing champions league football to league football, they are completely different.