10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[exneo]

Villa is nowhere near as good as Messi at finishing, passing, or dribbling. This team depends on Messi for nearly every creative offensive outburst. Messi (and Iniesta, sometimes) are the only midgets that can break a line and create goal scoring opportunities--Villa, Pedro, Xavi can't. The team is talented, but this style of football can win matches ONLY with Messi. Teams can shut down Tiki Taka. Teams cannot shut down Messi. That is why Messi is the most valuable player on the team and the best in the world.

 

[xaviniesta]

Villa is nowhere near as good as Messi at finishing, passing, or dribbling. This team depends on Messi for nearly every creative offensive outburst. Messi (and Iniesta, sometimes) are the only midgets that can break a line and create goal scoring opportunities--Villa, Pedro, Xavi can't. The team is talented, but this style of football can win matches ONLY with Messi. Teams can shut down Tiki Taka. Teams cannot shut down Messi. That is why Messi is the most valuable player on the team and the best in the world.

 

[XxBradKennedyxX]

and how good were spain in those tournaments? the only convincing performance at the euros was against italy who certainly didnt park the bus.

 

[messi_xavi_iniesta]

Impressive numbers by Villa. I take back what i said: he deserves more passes to him.

 

[messi_xavi_iniesta]

 

[beautifulgame]

and how good were spain in those tournaments? the only convincing performance at the euros was against italy who certainly didnt park the bus.

I interpreted that quite differently; in that, Spain are so much better than their Euro challengers that they can afford to be on cruise control in Europe.

 

[lessthanjake]

Maradona was an even better and more creative passer than Messi since Maradona was a genuine #10 and playmaker who would dictate the pace of a game. Not a playmaking forward / false 9 who drops deep and tries the killer ball. But then again Messi is only 25. He might drop even deeper and play more withdrawn and take more control of games in a few years. Maradona's dribbling wasn't too shabby either.

I think their killer balls are about equal. This was not even close to true before last season IMO, but last season Messi really improved in this regard. In terms of Maradona being better at dictating the pace of the game, I agree, and that is what I meant when I said Maradona was better in the possession game. Maradona was better at picking out the right pass in the possession game and better at long passes. Messi is pretty uniquely good at this stuff for a forward though. My main point was that I think Messi's advantage in goalscoring outweighs Maradona's advantage in dictating the pace of the game. The goalscoring is just worth way more to his team and is way more irreplaceable.

Was Maradona as good a goalscorer as Messi? Well. Maradona played for Napoli in the Serie A of the 80s. Platini's and Laudrup's Juventus with Scirea (some say he was better than Beckenbauer) and Gentile (whose manmarking of Maradona and Zico in 1982 helped Italy win the WC) at the back. Sacchi's Milan. Sampdoria with Vierchowod at the back and Mancini upfront (Sampdoria won their one and only Scudetto in that era). Roma led by Falcao (you know, one of the Brazil 1982 legends) etc. So yes. Maradona didn't score 10 hattricks in a season under these circumstances playing for little Napoli. But I'm sure if he played in a stacked team with basically 10 World Cup winners on his side in an unbalanced league (Barcelona's estimated squad value: € 650 million; Zaragoza's estimated squad value: € 40 million), he would have score much more. But that's the downside of football and statistics. Statistically Mario Gomez is a better forward than Maradona.

Yeah, Maradona played for a worse offensive team in a better defensive league. But the difference here is huge. While he was with Napoli (i.e. his peak years), Maradona got 115 goals in 259 matches (0.44 goals a match). Since the start of the 2008-2009 season (i.e. Messi's peak years), Messi has 233 goals in 237 matches (0.98 goals a match). That is a MASSIVE difference. Consider further that 41 of Maradona's goals with Napoli were penalties. He really only scored 74 goals in 259 matches (0.29 goals a match) in open play or from free kicks. Messi surely has a similar number of penalties scored in the past few years, and without having to figure out the exact number, I'm sure Messi has somewhere around 0.8 goals a match from open play or free kicks. Again, this is a HUGE difference.

You can certainly argue that Maradona played in a great defensive league. I would counterargue two things. First, today's CL is a better defensive league than the 1980s Serie A. There were many great defenders in the Serie A back then, but I think it'd be real hard to argue that the average CL squad is not better defensively than the AVERAGE Serie A squad back then. Maradona obviously played plenty of bottom of the table teams in the Serie A. Despite this, Messi has scored 46 goals in 51 CL matches since the beginning of the 2008-2009 season. Second, Maradona played some matches outside of that Serie A. During his time at Napoli, he played 25 matches of continental level football (i.e. UEFA Cup or European Cup). He only scored 5 goals in those 25 matches, 3 of which were penalties. Comparing that to Messi's CL numbers is pretty stark, especially considering most of Maradona's continental matches were in the UEFA Cup, not even the European Cup.

I would also point out that the Serie A wasn't THAT defensive the entire time he was there. For instance, when Napoli won the Serie A in 1990, there were just over 2 goals scored per match in the league. La Liga has had 2.7 goals scored per match the last few years. There's a difference certainly, but not always a gigantic one.

Ultimately, here's what it comes down to. Maradona did not score many non-penalty goals. He certainly did score some fantastic goals in his time, but he was nowhere close to a consistent goalscorer. On the other hand, Messi is proving himself to be possibly the greatest and most consistent goalscorer the sport has ever seen. Would Maradona be scoring more if he played for today's Barcelona in today's La Liga? Yeah, probably. But I think it's just silly to assume he would be anywhere near Messi's level. Virtually no one, not even the greatest strikers ever, have gotten anywhere near Messi's level, and Maradona certainly did not do anything to show he could have been up there (0.29 goals per match w/o penalties, 5 goals in 25 continental matches, etc.)

 

[jtmx12]

Villa is nowhere near as good as Messi at finishing, passing, or dribbling. This team depends on Messi for nearly every creative offensive outburst. Messi (and Iniesta, sometimes) are the only midgets that can break a line and create goal scoring opportunities--Villa, Pedro, Xavi can't. The team is talented, but this style of football can win matches ONLY with Messi. Teams can shut down Tiki Taka. Teams cannot shut down Messi. That is why Messi is the most valuable player on the team and the best in the world.

Who's talking about passing or dribbling? in the 6 images I gave, Villa just had to shoot the ball to the net, that's it. And according to stats, Villa is as good as Messi at finishing this season (actually, better). Villa, 5 goals, 8 shoots aka 63%. Messi, 17 goals, 63 shoots, aka 26%. So when it comes to passing the ball to one of them where they just have to shoot it, the thing needs to be simple: the one who has the best position gets the assist, not Messi every time.

As for the thing in red, are you freaking serious? Actually, Teams can shut down Messi, and they have done it a few times. Inter won the "Treble" and the Champions League against Messi's Barca, Real Madrid won the Copa del Rey, La Liga, Spanish Supercup against Messi's Barca. Chelsea won the last Champions against Barca, because Messi couldn't score against them and failed a penalty.

Spain won everything without Messi. There's life after Messi. If Villa had 63 shoots, and Messi 8 shoots instead, who would have more goals? Villa, clearly. Saying that, Messi is clearly the best, and the reason why he scores so much is because he's awesome and great, but also because the whole team plays for him, even the strikers, which causes the Messi Dependency so much.

Messi clearly deserves to get the ball a bit more often than everyone else, but last match Villa was completely ignored because of Messi, and the same thing happened to Pedro & Tello and it's not the first time. That's the only thing I'm complaining.

Do you think if Messi didn't play yesterday we would have lost only because he scored 2 goals and gave one assist? Clearly not. If he wasn't playing, another guy would take his role, like Pedro or Villa, as they did last match with Spain scoring 3 goals without Messi.

 

[lessthanjake]

Hahahaha. Seriously? Actually, Teams can shut down Messi, and they have done it a few times. Spain won everything without Messi, Inter won 3 titles and the champions against Messi, Real Madrid won the Copa del Rey, La Liga, Spanish SuperCup against Messi. Chelsea won the last champions against Messi, because he couldn't score against them and failed a penalty.

There's life after Messi. If Villa had 63 shoots, and Messi 8 shoots instead, who would have more goals? Villa, clearly. Saying that, Messi is clearly the best, and the reason why he scores so much is because he's great, but also because the whole team plays for him, even the strikers, which causes the Messi Dependency so much.

A ton of the "examples" you used are just incredibly silly. You are trying to say that teams can shut down Messi. You then use the most absurd list of examples. How is Spain winning without Messi an example of teams shutting down Messi? Maybe it's an example of these other players being able to create without Messi, but considering Spain scores a fraction as much as Barcelona I don't think you really have a point. You then say that Messi was shut down in La Liga last year because RM won???? Are you an idiot? He scored 50 goals in La Liga. RM won because they dominated other teams, not because teams shut down Messi. Next, you say that he was shut down in the Spanish Super Cup this year because Barcelona lost. Again, what are you talking about? He scored 2 goals in this year's Super Cup. The only valid examples you give are Messi not scoring against Chelsea, Inter, or RM in the CdR a couple years ago. I hardly think that 5 important matches without goals in the last 3.5 years for Messi shows that Messi can be shut down remotely easily (especially when one of your examples is against RM, a team that Messi has no problem scoring against in general). Remember, EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN THE WORLD plays Barcelona the same way. They park the bus and try to shut down Messi. It has only worked a handful of times.

 

[messi_xavi_iniesta]

Who's talking about passing or dribbling? in the 6 images I gave, Villa just had to shoot the ball to the net, that's it. And according to stats, Villa is as good as Messi at finishing this season (actually, better). Villa, 5 goals, 8 shoots aka 63%. Messi, 17 goals, 63 shoots, aka 26%. So when it comes to passing the ball to one of them where they just have to shoot it, the thing needs to be simple: the one who has the best position gets the assist, not Messi every time.

As for the thing in red, are you freaking serious? Actually, Teams can shut down Messi, and they have done it a few times. Spain won everything without Messi, Inter won the "Treble" and the Champions League against Messi's Barca, Real Madrid won the Copa del Rey, La Liga, Spanish Supercup against Messi's Barca. Chelsea won the last Champions against Barca, because Messi couldn't score against them and failed a penalty.

There's life after Messi. If Villa had 63 shoots, and Messi 8 shoots instead, who would have more goals? Villa, clearly. Saying that, Messi is clearly the best, and the reason why he scores so much is because he's awesome and great, but also because the whole team plays for him, even the strikers, which causes the Messi Dependency so much.

Messi clearly deserves to get the ball a bit more often than everyone else, but last match Villa was completely ignored because of Messi, and the same thing happened to Pedro & Tello and it's not the first time. That's the only thing I'm complaining.

Do you think if Messi didn't play yesterday we would have lost only because he scored 2 goals and gave one assist? Clearly not. If he wasn't playing, another guy would take his role, like Pedro or Villa, as they did last match with Spain scoring 3 goals without Messi.

Valid point. I agree. I hope that Villa starts getting the attention he deserves.

 

[Papabeef]

Who's talking about passing or dribbling? in the 6 images I gave, Villa just had to shoot the ball to the net, that's it. And according to stats, Villa is as good as Messi at finishing this season (actually, better). Villa, 5 goals, 8 shoots aka 63%. Messi, 17 goals, 63 shoots, aka 26%. So when it comes to passing the ball to one of them where they just have to shoot it, the thing needs to be simple: the one who has the best position gets the assist, not Messi every time.

As for the thing in red, are you freaking serious? Actually, Teams can shut down Messi, and they have done it a few times. Inter won the "Treble" and the Champions League against Messi's Barca, Real Madrid won the Copa del Rey, La Liga, Spanish Supercup against Messi's Barca. Chelsea won the last Champions against Barca, because Messi couldn't score against them and failed a penalty.

Spain won everything without Messi. There's life after Messi. If Villa had 63 shoots, and Messi 8 shoots instead, who would have more goals? Villa, clearly. Saying that, Messi is clearly the best, and the reason why he scores so much is because he's awesome and great, but also because the whole team plays for him, even the strikers, which causes the Messi Dependency so much.

Messi clearly deserves to get the ball a bit more often than everyone else, but last match Villa was completely ignored because of Messi, and the same thing happened to Pedro & Tello and it's not the first time. That's the only thing I'm complaining.

Do you think if Messi didn't play yesterday we would have lost only because he scored 2 goals and gave one assist? Clearly not. If he wasn't playing, another guy would take his role, like Pedro or Villa, as they did last match with Spain scoring 3 goals without Messi.

Interesting way to look at things.....

 

[jtmx12]

.

The Spain thing was for his whole reply, not for the thing in red only clearly. My bad for having it in the wrong spot.

As for La Liga, last year, didn't we lose it because of the lack of goals that the "god" Messi (according to exneo) couldn't provide in some matches where we lost points? like in the last clasico played in Camp Nou?

Interesting way to look at things.....

Well, in the 6 images I provided, you can see Messi & Villa, and even tho Villa had a good position in all of them, Messi get's the ball every time, while Villa not even 1. Isn't that being completely ignored because of Messi?

 

[Stric]

But then again, as long as the team is winning, something's obviously being done well. If they weren't, then this entire analysis would make a whole lot more sense.

I'd understand the complaints if we were losing, but enumerating situations which ended in goals being scored as examples of "bad" decisions doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

 

[Papabeef]

I suppose whats good for the team > whats good for any INDIVIDUAL. Messi is doing great with the way things are right now, Barca attack is doing great, our defense is the problem.

Villa is doing a good role for the team, considering the amount of time he played since coming back from injury. dont see the problem..unless theres problems in the locker room as Marca and others tried to preach.

 

[jtmx12]

But then again, as long as the team is winning, something's obviously being done well. If they weren't, then this entire analysis would make a whole lot more sense.

I'd understand the complaints if we were losing, but enumerating situations which ended in goals being scored as examples of "bad" decisions doesn't seem very reasonable to me.

3 ended in goal, another 3 didn't because of the "pass the ball to Messi every time" factor. Plus, Messi's second goal was pretty much perfect, because he could have failed it easily. Passing the ball to Messi on that one wasn't the best call, but it ended up being the best call because of Messi's awesomeness. As for first goal, he scored yep, but Villa could have scored it instead as well. Villa ended up alone because of his awesome run, and Messi also ended up alone because of Villa's awesome run that dragged like 4 defenders out of Messi's way.

All the hard work that Pedro & Villa provide to the team that not everyone can see should be awarded with goals, they don't deserve to watch Messi score every single goal, because they are strikers and they need goals. You need to see their faces, specially Villa, they aint happy.