10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[Flavia]

Messi has demanded a bit too much attention and swallowed up a lot of our attack dynamic, or lack thereof. People shouldn't be flamed for stating that or for stating that a coach should have the balls to sit Messi more and have more of a well rounded team that includes multiple threats Instead of just Messi. Its not Messi's fault per se, but it has to do with him demanding to play and essentially clogging so much of our once potent attack. Its not bad to point that very obvious point out or make someone less of a fan for doing so! We all love and value Messi but let's try and see things objectively.

Seeing things objectively, I cant understand you stating that Messi "demands" things. The attack today isn't potent because it's made of alexis and pedro. Messi is not a selfish player, that wants to score all goals by himself. He is doing it because there's no one else to do it. That was painfully obvious when he was sit against bayern.

 

[Doobs]

ALL we have to do is get goal scorers at the end of his passes. We've seen him provide for Villa so many times simply because Villa knows how to finish. The problem is that Pedro and Alexis can't score to save their lives. They need a goal scorer. Pedro and Alexis give us defensive options (failing at that recently too) It's strange because our pressing game of the past is now non-existant. So what are they in the team for?

Tito needs to get his priorities right and a major tactical overhaul is required.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

Messi has demanded a bit too much attention and swallowed up a lot of our attack dynamic, or lack thereof. People shouldn't be flamed for stating that or for stating that a coach should have the balls to sit Messi more and have more of a well rounded team that includes multiple threats Instead of just Messi. Its not Messi's fault per se, but it has to do with him demanding to play and essentially clogging so much of our once potent attack. Its not bad to point that very obvious point out or make someone less of a fan for doing so! We all love and value Messi but let's try and see things objectively.

+1

 

[Henry_IB]

Messi has demanded a bit too much attention and swallowed up a lot of our attack dynamic, or lack thereof. People shouldn't be flamed for stating that or for stating that a coach should have the balls to sit Messi more and have more of a well rounded team that includes multiple threats Instead of just Messi. Its not Messi's fault per se, but it has to do with him demanding to play and essentially clogging so much of our once potent attack. Its not bad to point that very obvious point out or make someone less of a fan for doing so! We all love and value Messi but let's try and see things objectively.

You make it sound like Messi forces the coaches and players to play / act to his benefit. Not sure if you phrased it poorly or if was intentional. But saying Messi demands too much attention is just.... Secondly, you seem to think benching Messi would allow us to play a more well rounded team. Ridiculous. While I certaintly agree that Messi in a false nine role isn't necessarily the best all times, he can play on the right win for example and still be the best in the world on that position.

Benching messi should never be an option, different positions? Sure. Also, you say Messi is clogging our once potent attack; Messi was part of the "our once potent attack". The difference was good wingers / different formations / teams not being used to our style / a Xavi at his peak.

Messi is not the problem of this "crisis" (Lol at everyone going apeshit due to losing out to a superb bayern, we still made semifinal and won the league) but rather an extremely unstable defense, lackluster wingers, a lack of pressing which we used to see under pep and Xavi although still world class isn't where he was 2 years ago.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

This is a great read, I posted it the match thread too. http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/19208/part-2-comparison/

Messi has scored 42 (Liga) goals this season from only about 120 shots (35% conversion). For Cristiano or Cavani to score that many goals, they’d have to take 230 shots. Just think about that. They’d need 110 more shots – roughly 2x more. That is a ton of balls wasted that turn into Goalkicks/Blocks/Loss of possession.
This is also why, when we say we’d prefer Messi to score less and for others to score more, there’s a downside to that. Those other players will need far more shots to produce the same number of goals and that will result in more loss of possession. There are obviously advantages to this as well, but that’s a downside trade off.

Your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from the facts you presented. While Messi is clearly exceptional and an efficient goal scorer, efficiency is exactly what the Barça attack strives for *throughout the entire team.* Barça is very conservative with its shotmaking, which is why, whenever possible, Barça wants to walk the ball up the middle into the net, and that's what they do, most of the time. The Barça ethos is to keep the ball until a high percentage opportunity presents itself. Except for Alves' ridiculous crosses, there are very few speculative attempts on goal.

Most teams are set up to speculatively throw the ball into the box more, with the assumption that quantity will eventually yield results. The downside, as you mention, is that they have to get back on defense quickly, and over and over again. Barça prizes shot quality over quantity- less speculative efforts, but higher chance of scoring (from close range and from the middle being the ne plus ultra). That's why we watch Barça- we want to see those quality team-created goals, goals of skillful deliberate creation, not just finally being in the right place at the right time 1 time out of 20. Along with goals of supreme individual effort, team goals created by skill are the most entertaining, unless all one cares about is the score line. Messi or no Messi, Barça is always going to try to get those high percentage shots close and through the middle- even if they lose the ball trying.

 

[Yannick03]

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread, why blame Messi for all this ? It's obviously all the other players (except for Iniesta maybe) that have declined. Messi is the only one that has kept improving since the 2010-2011 season. He had to make up for others cause they missed a shit load of chances.

I don't believe it's Messi's fault that we're to dependent on him. It looks that way cause he save our asses a billion times, the others just keep screwing it up. I can't remember the day that anyone besides Messi looked like a goal threat. Others were declining and we had to adopt our system to Messi cause he's the only real danger in front of goal, if others would have stepped up we wouldn't had to adapt our system to Messi.

In the last 5 years, he probably has given us singlehandedly 5 or 6 (perhaps even more) trophies we wouldn't have won without him and being highly important in all the rest of them but now because all the others don't step up, it's Messi's fault that they suck because he happens to be the only one that can actually score ?! I really don't get this, which manager wouldn't build his team around the best player ? Last season, Pep did it out of necessity because of the many injuries and he knew changes had to happen but they didn't and now we're stuck with this Messidependency which probably will take a couple of seasons to get rid off.

I seriously can't believe how someone can blame a player for scoring 60+ goals a season with 20+ assists, I really can't !

 

[Pepe Silvia]

You make it sound like Messi forces the coaches and players to play / act to his benefit. Not sure if you phrased it poorly or if was intentional. But saying Messi demands too much attention is just.... Secondly, you seem to think benching Messi would allow us to play a more well rounded team. Ridiculous.

I'll tell you what's been ridiculous. Teams finding us out and us doing nothing to change or have a secondary channel of attack. It remains, tiki-tika tiki-taka with no variation. Atleast Pep experimented, while Tito did/does nothing to change what does not prove successful. Also, as for benching Messi, I was referring to benching him when he is not fit (Bilbao) and resting him properly ahead of big matches instead of wearing him into the ground. Also, it wouldn't hurt to have him subbed out on occassion to have canteranos a chance to prove themselves in la liga and throw away matches. Further, by benching Messi once in a while, you give defenses more to think about, more to study and more dimension. Yes Messi is the best in the world, but the trick is to keep defenses guessing, and by incorporating new players you keep things fresh. The forward attack line needs to move/rotate much more consistently for my money.

While I certaintly agree that Messi in a false nine role isn't necessarily the best all times, he can play on the right win for example and still be the best in the world on that position.

Well that was my whole point. Messi at false 9 (for the bazillionth time) in Liga has been great but against world class teams it becomes a shut down middle lanes and stick 2-3-4 players on Messi and there goes the attack. That is when playing him on the wing is necessary, but either the coaching staff are afraid to confront Messi or Messi insists on playing in the middle. Take your pick. I despise the thought of either option.

Benching messi should never be an option, different positions? Sure. Also, you say Messi is clogging our once potent attack; Messi was part of the "our once potent attack". The difference was good wingers / different formations / teams not being used to our style / a Xavi at his peak.

Yes Messi was once part of a potent attack, a piece. Now he has become our only source of attack. One thing remains clear, if we are to succeed we have to 'move Messi around'. That's the most important thing. To have him used in a more versatile way.

Messi is not the problem of this "crisis" (Lol at everyone going apeshit due to losing out to a superb bayern, we still made semifinal and won the league) but rather an extremely unstable defense, lackluster wingers, a lack of pressing which we used to see under pep and Xavi although still world class isn't where he was 2 years ago.

Such a smug remark. Are people not allowed to point out that our attack has become stale, flat, one-dimensional without being made to go 'apeshit'? I don't think that's fair.

 

[putogusiluz8]

Well nobody can blame him for being the best, but we can enquire into how this messidependence came to be and who or what is largely at fault. Immediately management comes to mind, for structuring a team to support a one man show, not buying the correct players etc. Big mistake. But go a little further, the man who is the one man show. Is he not aware of it how deeply dependent the team has become of him and how dangerous that is, does he not object to this, or care, or he is simply helpless to it? Did it happen through his volition or naturally every one started to rest on his shoulders? Either way I sense he has been A Ok with this, and that is a bit selfish on his part. In 10-11 we had 2 players capable of scoring, Pedro-Villa, likewise in 08-09, Henry-Eto'o. This is what we shoud aim for.

Like I said, mostly management's faults, because Messi is just human and they seem to regard him as an indestructible unyielding force or something. He is the leader of this team but he need not take all the responsibility, and he should voice this if necessary, so that we can have a balance share of responsibility even if he is still at the helm. This Messidependence has to be avoided but Messi needs to know it too, if you will. I'm not saying he shouldn't score a ton of goals, but he should not be complacent to the idea of the whole load being on him, instead react to this and realize the danger it puts the team in. It's easy to see before this whole ship went down with him being injured- that no one cared about this or gave it importance, and Messi is no exception.

 

[Henry_IB]

1: Yes Messi was once part of a potent attack, a piece. Now he has become our only source of attack. One thing remains clear, if we are to succeed we have to 'move Messi around'. That's the most important thing. To have him used in a more versatile way.

2: Such a smug remark. Are people not allowed to point out that our attack has become stale, flat, one-dimensional without being made to go 'apeshit'? I don't think that's fair.

1: Your first post made it sound it was Messi's fault that he was our only threat right now by saying "Messi demands too much attention / clogging our attack" but I assume you phrased yourself poorly. That Messi is our only threat right now has to do with management / overall performance of others, especially wingers. But I do agree that something has to change because our attack is indeed lackluster vs quality teams.. Either playing Messi elsewhere (formation change) or buy wingers who can make things happen by themsleves and draw some attention away from Messi is needed.

2: I still think people have gone apeshit since the bayern games. You didn't see this kind of panic mode posts all over the forum before the games and go back in threads and read after the milan game you'll see loads of posts in the line of "best team ever, best in the world". Although there has been a consistent unhappiness with our wingers and defense over the season, you can't say people have complained a lot over out attack potential before the bayern games given how la liga has been going etc. And now since we got crushed by Bayern (despite them playing so extremely well, not sure we would have beat them 2 years ago if they played like they did and add the fact that Messi was injured / not in form) people are in my opinion, going apeshit and into full panic mode.

Let's just leave it that we probably look at the state of our attack the same but that you phrased yourself poorly or I misinterpreted your post.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

Well I explained that against tough defenses, he actually does clog our attack so you must have misinterpreted my post. I can't be bothered to read back I'm with a newborn baby in my hands and a 1.5 year old crying as I write this. We do however agree on the state of our attack and I truly hope changes will be made.

2. People weren't in panic mode before Bayern, but MANY saw the writing on the wall about our shortcomings for better parts of the season, especially in defense. Fans have been calling for a more dynamic attack and sound defense all season but we worked with what we had which was not very much if we're being brutally honest. It was only a matter of time before we got exposed like Madrid had done to us earlier on in the season.

 

[spark]

Its not Messi's fault per se.

and

it has to do with him demanding to play and essentially clogging so much of our once potent attack

are contradictory. Messi also does not clog our attack. Clogging our attack is what Ibra did by not being fast or agile. Anyone with working eyes can see We are more fluid when he plays.

 

[spark]

Well I explained that against tough defenses, he actually does clog our attack so you must have misinterpreted my post. I can't be bothered to read back I'm with a newborn baby in my hands and a 1.5 year old crying as I write this. We do however agree on the state of our attack and I truly hope changes will be made.
\n.

He does not clog our attack. This is genuinely a head-scratcher.

 

[ZenI]

Honestly, there need to be some changes done.
First of all; don't play Messi every single game. Even if he insist, tie him to a pole or something.
Second; play him on the right sometimes with a proper CF. Because that will cause havoc against parked buses. Than Alves need to stay back a little.
Third; don't always let him come down to midfield and pick up the ball. We have 2-3 of the best midfielders, let them do the job from time to time. It does get predictable, everybody just waits untill Messi gets the ball an than put 3-4 players on him - they all know a forward won't run behind defenders and receive a deadly pass.
Fourth; get 1 or 2 wingers who can challange defenders or we can say goodbye to CL next season. Honestly, if Messi is in Xavi's/Iniesta's lap and with wingers that don't challange or make runs centrally behind enemy lines - it will be a looong 13/14 season. And ffs, play Cesc in midfield!

 

[BigBarcaBoy]

He does not clog our attack. This is genuinely a head-scratcher.

After reading some of the things on this thread I think i need to lie down

 

[Tonykross]

Our problem is we're playing with two average players alongside Messi in Pedro and Alexis,let's get real star forwards to play with Messi and our attack will be deadly.