10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[Flavia]

If you haven't already seen where Neymar's future position in this squad is (Leo's spot)

do you mean on the field, or as the team star? Anyway, I don't agree with neither. Neymar will have a spot of his own, don't think that's what's bothering him. After being so long without recurring injuries, he's been having them since April.

As his father said today, this had a psychological effect on him. It would on anybody. I really think this is being taken way out of proportion.

 

[footyfan]

Are you saying that even though he has won another Ballon d'or after that , has a lovely kid and he is happy , he isn't 100% the way he was because of that Chelsea game ?

of course not. The Chelsea game is just a point in time that I was referring to.

He was also a different player from the one he was in 08/09 to the one he was in 09/10 onwards. Tactics require different demands from players and as such changes in players. The tactics has to adapt if we want to continue winning things. By extension there will be changes in players too. I don't see why this is an issue?

I don't see it to be an issue really, I'm just bummed he's not that magical player anymore.

Of course, there's also the fact that not all adaptations and changes are positive. The one from 08/09 to 10/11 was a huge positive, not only for the team but Messi himself.

The recent change (not talking about Messi to RW but about him becoming more static) affects the players' and teams' performance against organized defenses. Hopefully, the RW change yields better results

 

[big_man]

of course not. The Chelsea game is just a point in time that I was referring to.



I don't see it to be an issue really, I'm just bummed he's not that magical player anymore.

Of course, there's also the fact that not all adaptations and changes are positive. The one from 08/09 to 10/11 was a huge positive, not only for the team but Messi himself.

The recent change (not talking about Messi to RW but about him becoming more static) affects the players' and teams' performance against organized defenses. Hopefully, the RW change yields better results

See that's the thing, are you sure that isn't just a perception? because I look at this video, which is just his highlights from this year, and I see one heck of a magical player, so much so that you'll need all of the 4 years of Ronaldo's Madrid career to be able to compile something like this.


[YOUTUBE]l0UWajMcnIA[/YOUTUBE]

He was the SINGULAR goal threat we had over the past 2 seasons. That will naturally come with a lot of sacrifice, to be able to do all that and still score 100+ goals that carried the team over the past 2 years is remarkable.

 

[suckabov]

He's magical enough for me. There have been quite a few moments this season where I couldn't actually believe what I was watching. I guess it's just an issue of getting used to his magic, which makes it seem more mundane.

 

[footyfan]

Perception is what really matters when you think of aesthetics...

I've seen that video atleast 5 times, and I still feel he was better to watch, more consistently in Pep's time.

Think about it this way, Iniesta's highlights from earlier seasons would rival the one from last season, but he was inarguably better to watch last season than at any other time.

 

[big_man]

Perception is what really matters when you think of aesthetics...

I've seen that video atleast 5 times, and I still feel he was better to watch, more consistently in Pep's time.

Think about it this way, Iniesta's highlights from earlier seasons would rival the one from last season, but he was inarguably better to watch last season than at any other time.

On the contrary, I was disappointed in Iniesta last season. In the biggest games in Messi's absence/injury ridden games I felt he could have done more, like he usually stands out for Spain.

You say he was better to watch but what did it lead to? If it wasn't for Messi we would have been dumped out by Milan at the round of 16, nevermind the PSG game where Messi came to save our arses again.

Brings the question of how important aesthetics really is. Remember, we are talking about (arbitrarily) something like 100% beauty vs 80% beauty here, not 100% beauty vs 0% (ugly football).

If the 80% (or even 60%) will get us winning more matches, i'll take that any day, I guess that's where we differ.

 

[big_man]

He's magical enough for me. There have been quite a few moments this season where I couldn't actually believe what I was watching. I guess it's just an issue of getting used to his magic, which makes it seem more mundane.

This is what I was getting at.

 

[footyfan]

We dont differ entirely to be honest, my main point has always been that Messi's recent poor movement affects the team's and his own performances against organized defenses.

The aesthetics was supposed to be a side point but since you highlighted it the discussion took a turn. Apologies for my poor phrasing

 

[NotInHere]

Nobody has a clue what's wrong with Messi, nobody can get inside his head. We simply have to wait and see how he responds these upcoming games.

People love to speculate don't they?

 

[big_man]

We dont differ entirely to be honest, my main point has always been that Messi's recent poor movement affects the team's and his own performances against organized defenses.

The aesthetics was supposed to be a side point, apologies if it didn't come across that way

I see what you're saying. But do you not think that maybe teams have also smartened up to the false 9 tactic? If you have 2 players following you about (off the ball) every second of the game and you have 4 players hounding you when you have the ball then it's pretty difficult to have any effective movement.

The problem is there is no one player playing the game at the moment that is subjected to that type of defensive tactic so its pretty difficult to compare. What I do know though is that it can't be easy to have amazing movement when you have 4 players always on you all the time. Players like Iniesta and Ronaldo only have one player or two at most marking them out of the game, if any at all. Messi would have 4 more often than not in every big game and this has been happening since 2011.

 

[footyfan]

I see your point but I think it could also be because it's the other way round - it's become a bit easier to mark Messi since his movement has deteriorated.

Arsenal, for example had as organized a defense as any, in that 3-1 win, but watch how much Messi moves around; in fact the entire team but especially him. Same situation in the Chelsea game, or the Madrid games.

I'm not discounting the effort put in by opposing coaches, especially Mourinho, but to me, it seems that Messi (tactics mostly) was making it a bit easier for them.

 

[SeloBarca]

He does walk a little bit to much, more then previous seasons. Maybe its some new tactic, i dont know. It was noticable before the injury aswell.

 

[Flavia]

Nobody has a clue what's wrong with Messi, nobody can get inside his head. We simply have to wait and see how he responds these upcoming games.

People love to speculate don't they?

Yes. Every season is the same, normally around november. This year is worse, beacuse of his injuries. But it's always the same. He lost speed, he just walks, he's returning too much to get the ball, etc, etc.

 

[numero]

Jorge Messi (father): "The injuries have affected Leo, he really wants to avoid another relapse, but no worries, he'll be back soon." [ser]

 

[Sumlit]

I'll try to debunk this useless perception that Messi has poor movement and walks a lot because he is disinterested or lazy.

From playing experience as a striker, I can tell you that one of the most important aspects of playing the position is fitness and form. More so than any other position on the field, the striker needs to be fit, healthy and fresh.

Rule of thumb for any level of football: An unfit striker is an ineffective striker, and a tired striker is a useless striker.

The more tired you are, the clumsier your touches are, the slower your thinking is, and the poorer your shots become. In any other part of the field, this issue becomes lessened because you have more space and/or more time, like in midfield, or you just have to destroy and control, like in defense.
Only as a striker, are these issues so influential and crippling. The striker needs to have the best touches, needs to think the fastest, and needs to shoot truer than any other player. Tiredness and lack of fitness are utterly devastating.

Messi does not press like the rest and does not run like the rest, however, Messi also scores more than the rest.
Messi saves himself, so that he is fresh to have the perfect touch, thinking lightning quick, and shoot with uncanny precision.

There is a reason that through the years as Messi has transitioned to the CF spot, he has moved less, pressed less, but scored more and more.