Nonsense, Messis physical attributes absolutely contributes to him being the player he is. Of course he doesnt rely on it, but he couldnt do some of the things he has done without his body. He would of course be amazing even if he was as slow as Xabi, but not to the same extent as he is.
10 - Lionel Messi - v3
- Thread starter Barcaman
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Nonsense, Messis physical attributes absolutely contributes to him being the player he is. Of course he doesnt rely on it, but he couldnt do some of the things he has done without his body. He would of course be amazing even if he was as slow as Xabi, but not to the same extent as he is.
F
Flavia
Guest
It's good to remember younger Messi had more space and less defenders commited to stopping him. Give Messi that much space today, and that notion would disappear, imo.
Against Sevilla, he'll play his 51st liga game on a row.
Against Sevilla, he'll play his 51st liga game on a row.
TornAndFrayed
Banned
Are you missing my point ?
Messi wasn't nearly as great a playmaker as he is today, in spite of better acceleration, pace and agility in his younger years. He became a better one because his vision and sense of timing improved, and in spite of a (very negligible imo) physical decline
Yeah, i know he is a better playmaker today. But he is still more dangerous than he would be without his physical skills.
doublehh03
New member
It's like with other great generational athletes in other sports.
Michael Jordan wasn't the physical specimen that he was in his 2nd 3-peat. But he was still as dominant and played at a GOAT-level (more post game and inside play rather than insane dunks). Same thing with Lebron James.
Great players always fine-tune their game and change to be a more efficient player.
CatalinR10
Senior Member
Goats gon' goat
footyfan
Calma, calma
But he's doing them now on the sidelines and deeper, typically against one player. All the other stats were when he was surrounded in the center and possibly taking on multiple, you can't tell me psychologically it makes no difference. His dribbling was definitely better before:
Obviously he is still the best dribbler in the world.
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Sumlit
San Claudio Bravo
He's also doing it more often from deeper positions, with defenses more entrenched, and with a team who is not as dominant and who cannot create as many spaces for him as it used to. And he's almost never just against one player too, even while in the sidelines. As soon as Messi gets the ball all the eyes of the defense turn to him and players instantly gravitate towards him.
Messi's dribbling was more explosive and agile when he was younger, this is without debate. He had more agility and burst back then, that he has replaced with strength and craftiness as he got older. His dribbling now is more cerebral and crafty, rather than explosive.
My point was his effectiveness has not diminished much, if at all, as shown by the stats. He might have changed as he aged from the explosive slippery eel he was to a stronger, craftier and more cerebral player, but he has not lost much of his effectiveness, if any.
footyfan
Calma, calma
Yes, his effectiveness as shown by the numbers has remained the same (reduced a lot the past two seasons, but bumped back up this season to just below the old levels - looking at UCL stats). But it's important to remember that because of his loss in agility and explosiveness, and his increased experience, strength and maturity - he does not attempt the difficult dribbles like he used to. That's why the sample of dribbles from now is collectively a set of easier dribbles than the ones from a few years ago. And Messi still had better accuracy then. That goes to show that he was definitely a better dribbler, or atleast showed it to the world. Just look at this video below, and notice how he squeezes into the smallest spaces between the lines. Of course, there were a lot more inefficient dribbles in there but that's kinda irrelevant as we're talking about skill in dribbling.
Also, to be more accurate with those stats, you also need to include dispossession numbers.
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TornAndFrayed
Banned
yea, which is why we see so many delightful diagonal crosses towards our left wing. The defenders have to gravitate towards Messi while keeping the center compact, freeing up space for Ney or Alba. They need to get more used to them btw, especially Alba whose insane pace make him a perfect candidate to be on the receiving end while Neymar crowds the center
Sumlit
San Claudio Bravo
I think the reason he doesn't attempt the difficult dribbles as often as he used has more to do with his increased maturity than with his loss of explosiveness and agility. Those dribbles were spectacular, but they failed more than they succeeded, even from him. He's still capable of doing it, even while not with the explosiveness of before, but with the strength and craftiness of now. We've seen him go on great dribbles this season.
There's also the fact both the team is not as dominant as it used to, that matters to the efficiency of a player, as well as the way Barca and Messi himself get defend now as opposed to then.
His dispossession numbers are actually significantly lower now than they were back then, which ties into Messi being more selective and more mature in his game.
Per Whoscored:
Dispossessions per game
La Liga
14/15 - 2
13/14 - 2.2
12/13 - 2.6
11/12 - 2.6
10/11 - 2.9
09/10 - 2.5
UCL
14/15 - 1.5
13/14 - 2.3
12/13 - 3
11/12 - 3.6
10/11 - 3.2
09/10 - 2.9
Vlom
Previously known as Mehssi
Ahh .. if only Alba was a good finisher ^^
TornAndFrayed
Banned
Messi stats... the only ones i truly like since they're based on such unusually large numbers for a football player, making them that much more reliable
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I have a somewhat similar "feeling".
I haven't checked the stats and this is hard to measure, but my feeling about Messi aged 20 and Messi aged 28 is this:
-- aged 20, he would touch the ball, let's say 20 times per match
-- and out of 20 touches, he would pass the ball to a teammate 10 times
-- and 10 out of 20 touches would be dribbles
-- so, imo, he attempted dribbles more often compared to a total number of HIS touches
-- also, in the past, whenever he decided to dribble (in those 10 actions), he didn't think too much and didn't care whether there is 1 or 4 defenders around him
-- so, when he decided to dribble, he would just tried to dribble past 4 defenders, if needed
Today, 28 aged Messi:
-- he is slower
-- he isn't that fast in acceleration
-- he weighs more
-- he is not that fast in changing directions, in little turns and moves as back then
-- but, he is much "smarter" and more routined now
-- for example, today, if he has the ball in the 3rd minute of the match, he won't run like an idiot through 4 defenders
-- there is "no hurry" for something like that
-- and he will dribble only when he see "a lot of free space"/when it is the right moment
-- or, when we are losing and we need some magic, then he will dribble past 4 defenders, if needed
-- also, I said that I have a feeling that he would touch the ball 20 times in the past, and tried 10 dribbles out of 20 touches
-- but today, he touches the ball more often as he is our key player, so let's say that he touches the ball 30, 50 or 100 times per match
-- but he still tries 10 dribbles
-- now 10 dribbles back then is on paper equal to 10 dribbles today, but in total, he touched the ball much less back then, and today he is our key main and a key man in a build up, let's say
-- so, in the past he would tried to dribble more often compared to his total number of touches
-- also, today he passes the ball much more to left and right to his teammates, and he waits for "a perfect moment to dribble"
-- while as a kid, he would dribble (almost) whenever possible
-- also, in the past, he would often try insane dribbles through 3-4-5 defenders
-- while today, he will dribble only if he has to dribble 1-2 opponents before he is able to make a shot on goal
-- today, he will do "insane" dribbles against 4 defenders only if we are losing or if he is extremely playful that night
Again, that doesn't mean that he is a worse player, but he surely is different.
He plays more with his brain, and he waits for a right moment to make a 50 meter run/with dribbling through 3-4 opponents
-- while 7-8 years ago, he wouldn't hesitate, save his energy and similar, and he would run in 50 meter solo actions almost whenever possible
So, I agree that it is hard to say that 5 dribbles per match today are exactly the same as 5 dribbles in 2006 or 2008.
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