10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Gohan]

Messi has 9.4 on whoscored while Feghouli has 8.5 What game were they watching??

Feghouli is only motm because Valencia won the game. He didn't do that much he just didn't waste the few chances he did have.

 

[Flavia]

Again, why do you assume they would have so much trouble marking him? The only times today we were able to link up successfully between the lines was when we had intelligent movement from one of our midfielders or, what do you know, wingers, into that space; a number nine wouldn't be able to achieve this because he wouldn't have anywhere to move into since he was already there. Half of that clever linkup play is due to players moving out of their position, cleverly interchanging, drifting into dangerous areas from places where they seem harmless. The markers don't pick up on them because they aren't expecting anyone to be there; if a number nine was there, not only would he be marked but the defenders would be more attentive in general, since someone is in and around them constantly. Just look at some of the runs Cesc and in particular Iniesta made. That late play that was almost a goal for Messi, that play where Iniesta had one defender on him and should have shot instead of lay it back... All those plays were because Iniesta moved into the space that a number nine would occupy and the defenders weren't expecting his arrival.

That's the point. To create more space to Messi. He often had FIVE players marking him today, when he was with the ball. Not 2 or 3, but five. Villa used to do that sometimes.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

But they don't need to drop one of the players marking Messi, they can just use the player who was marking the guy you took off for the number nine...

 

[Sumlit]

All of you guys are acting like a number nine would magically create space and cause defenders to lose their minds. Who exactly do we drop for that? Do we play three center backs and drop the attacking fullbacks and subsequently lose a lot of our attacking prowess? Do we drop one of our wingers and completely lose that flank (the fullback can't exactly cover that without a winger to cover either)? Do we drop a midfielder and lose control of the game and not even be able to get a ball to our front line? We would have to change our way of playing completely to include Messi and a number nine, and it would cost too much with no guaranteed gain.

I don't agree with this. A CF would most definitely create space to operate down the middle. Just by keeping the CBs deep and honest, that alone takes away players off of Messi. Today Mathieu was constantly leaving his position every time Messi ventured anywhere near his area of control. With a CF, he doesn't do that at all, or does it at his own risk of getting burned by the CF.

Wingers only really work if you have space for them to make runs and have a relatively open game. When teams drop back and pack the box with 8 or 9 defenders, wingers become much less effective and are reduced to dribbling and crossing. Well we know crossing for Barca is useless, we just don't have the size up front to exploit this, so the team needs to attack through the middle. Problem is, there are no players to attack. Only Messi and midfielders are left. Messi gets marked by 4, our midfielders lack speed, our wingers are hugging the sideline, our full backs are camping the deep in the opponents third, the team is reduced to passing and passing to find a gap; then boom, a turnover and a speed counter by the opponent.

Add a CF in place of a winger, drop the other winger deeper into midfield, now you have 2 forwards coming to the middle, more midfielders attacking from behind, the opponents fullbacks are forced to either come more centrally to help and thus leave the wing open for our bombing fullbacks to come from deep and deliver crosses to a box now much better stocked with targets; or cover the wings and be less efficient giving help defending play through the middle.

 

[Flavia]

But they don't need to drop one of the players marking Messi, they can just use the player who was marking the guy you took off for the number nine...

I really don't think there was more than one player marking alexis or pedro. And it would still create more space than what Messi is getting now. He doesn't need that much. Some able to score headers would also create another problem for defenses.

 

[Behrox]

But they don't need to drop one of the players marking Messi, they can just use the player who was marking the guy you took off for the number nine...

None of the wingers at our disposal have that threat with them to draw defenders bar Neymar and still Messi is marked unbelievably

 

[tello]

Easily the best Barca player today even though he was too underpar...

 

[Sumlit]

But they don't need to drop one of the players marking Messi, they can just use the player who was marking the guy you took off for the number nine...

That's not true. A fullback marking a winger is not going to move to the midfield or the center of the defense to mark a CF. That just won't happen.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

Add a CF in place of a winger, drop the other winger deeper into midfield, now you have 2 forwards coming to the middle, more midfielders attacking from behind, the opponents fullbacks are forced to either come more centrally to help and thus leave the wing open for our bombing fullbacks to come from deep and deliver crosses to a box now much better stocked with targets; or cover the wings and be less efficient giving help defending play through the middle.

The fullbacks can be tracked by the wingers, not to mention with that many players converged on the middle of the park getting the ball to our fullbacks quickly would be extremely difficult. And even if they did get the ball, it doesn't take much time at all to drop back and cover, that's a basic defensive principle, you pressure the player with the ball and only go to the threat afterward, and normally you will get their in time just because of the nature of the game. Either you outrun the ball or the ball moves so fast the attacker loses what time he gained by controlling it. That's what we saw happen with Messi today, every time he got the ball Valencia were almost always able to get to it and make the block. And Messi has one of the best first touches and instant shots in the game.

I really don't think there was more than one player marking alexis or pedro. And it would still create more space than what Messi is getting now. He doesn't need that much.

Right, there is one player marking a winger, that one player will now mark the number nine. And the number of players marking Messi would still remain the same.

EDIT:

That's not true. A fullback marking a winger is not going to move to the midfield or the center of the defense to mark a CF. That just won't happen

He won't literally go over there and mark him, I'll admit I was mistaken when I said that, but that's an extra player that isn't just going to suddenly become useless. He'll move up to pressure Messi, he'll cover one of our midfield runners, but he certainly won't just be nullified by the lack of winger to mark.

 

[Flavia]

The fullbacks can be tracked by the wingers, not to mention with that many players converged on the middle of the park getting the ball to our fullbacks quickly would be extremely difficult. And even if they did get the ball, it doesn't take much time at all to drop back and cover, that's a basic defensive principle, you pressure the player with the ball and only go to the threat afterward, and normally you will get their in time just because of the nature of the game. Either you outrun the ball or the ball moves so fast the attacker loses what time he gained by controlling it. That's what we saw happen with Messi today, every time he got the ball Valencia were almost always able to get to it and make the block. And Messi has one of the best first touches and instant shots in the game.



Right, there is one player marking a winger, that one player will now mark the number nine. And the number of players marking Messi would still remain the same.

I really don't think a lb would be inside the area marking a cf. Leave the side unmarked?

 

[Behrox]

The fullbacks can be tracked by the wingers, not to mention with that many players converged on the middle of the park getting the ball to our fullbacks quickly would be extremely difficult. And even if they did get the ball, it doesn't take much time at all to drop back and cover, that's a basic defensive principle, you pressure the player with the ball and only go to the threat afterward, and normally you will get their in time just because of the nature of the game. Either you outrun the ball or the ball moves so fast the attacker loses what time he gained by controlling it. That's what we saw happen with Messi today, every time he got the ball Valencia were almost always able to get to it and make the block. And Messi has one of the best first touches and instant shots in the game.



Right, there is one player marking a winger, that one player will now mark the number nine. And the number of players marking Messi would still remain the same.

EDIT:



He won't literally go over there and mark him, I'll admit I was mistaken when I said that, but that's an extra player that isn't just going to suddenly become useless. He'll move up to pressure Messi, he'll cover one of our midfield runners, but he certainly won't just be nullified by the lack of winger to mark.

But you think that a decent 9 being marked by a solitary marker will be a good defensive strategy

 

[Luftstalag14]

Although there is still a lot left to be desired of Messi, but he is not the reason of our defeat today. He was fine, very unlucky.

 

[Semi-Neutral]

But you think that a decent 9 being marked by a solitary marker will be a good defensive strategy

I don't see why not... It's not like he's floating in a different dimension with only one player on him, he's surrounded by all the other defenders whose attentions are focused on Messi, there's just one guy devoted to marking just him, the others won't completely ignore him though, just like they don't completely ignore Alexis or Pedro.

I really don't think a lb would be inside the area marking a cf. Leave the side unmarked?

I was wrong in what I said there, I admit. But perhaps a right back could tuck in and up a bit to mark Iniesta or Cesc, the defensive midfielder that marked them would be free to put pressure on Messi, and the center back that was putting pressure on Messi would be free to mark the number nine. The logistics of it may not be that easy to describe in words, but switching out one player for another won't magically reduce the number of markers, that just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Sumlit]

The fullbacks can be tracked by the wingers, not to mention with that many players converged on the middle of the park getting the ball to our fullbacks quickly would be extremely difficult. And even if they did get the ball, it doesn't take much time at all to drop back and cover, that's a basic defensive principle, you pressure the player with the ball and only go to the threat afterward, and normally you will get their in time just because of the nature of the game. Either you outrun the ball or the ball moves so fast the attacker loses what time he gained by controlling it. That's what we saw happen with Messi today, every time he got the ball Valencia were almost always able to get to it and make the block. And Messi has one of the best first touches and instant shots in the game.

A winger will be in serious disadvantage having to quickly react and track a bombing fullback, that's advantage Barca.
Players won't be converged in the middle of the field all hugging each other. By having the CF occupying the CBs deep, having the fullbacks still close to the sidelines to defend their flank, now you free the midfield from having to camp near the box to create. They can now operate closer to the middle circle of the pitch, taking advantage of the opponent back 4 being deeper and stretching out the opponent midfield with your bigger numbers, thus creating lanes for runs, passes into space and for Messi to run at people.

He won't literally go over there and mark him, I'll admit I was mistaken when I said that, but that's an extra player that isn't just going to suddenly become useless. He'll move up to pressure Messi, he'll cover one of our midfield runners, but he certainly won't just be nullified by the lack of winger to mark.

By taking away the clear target for the fullback, you create confusion that you can exploit. Fullback either has to come closer to the edge of the box to get into play thus leaving the wing exposed, or he stays in the wing and is taken out of the play. You force him to make decisions and create opportunities for mistakes.

CBs busy keeping an eye on your CF. Fullbacks without a clear target to mark. The back 4 has lost effectiveness and less players to stick to Messi like white on rice.

 

[Patty2720]

Just why???

Because in England he won't face 18/20 teams who play 5-5-0 .