10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[BarcaVillain]

"It seems like every time he faces a stifling,physical defense in important matches,he gets disinterested and doesn't posses the killer instinct of a Jordan to persevere and find a way to lead the team.

People can say,well he has won it all so he lacks motivation,but Jordan had 5 rings and played for the 6-th like it was his first...you can't kill your desire to win."

Nonsense. Played in two Champions League finals, scored in both. He had a bad game, but we need to either change the philosophy of the team and the players or bring someone in who is able to get the best out of the players we have. Unfortunately, when the chips were down, Martino showed on wednesday that he didn't have what it takes to change a game.

 

[DonAndres]

This. Also, the rest of the team (bar Neymar and Alba) didn't look much more interested than Messi, so it's unfair to single him out...

It is actually fair to single him out this time, but not to the extent that some have (criticism is one thing, but it's hilarious what some are suggesting off one match when not even 3 weeks ago he was giving out amazing performances vs. City, Real, and Osasuna.)

Messi played a shit game, he has no excuse. But the key word that some are forgetting is that it's a game. Not 5 in a row. Not 10 in a row. One, and that too surrounded by great form. There has been an off-putting trend with Messi's walking for the past two years but to completely turn on him based on one important match is ludicrous.

Of course, there are those who have been pointing out his flaws for a while so their words aren't new. It's just the ones who were referring to him as GOAT a few weeks ago and now saying that he should just "fuck off and go to Argentina because he doesn't care about Barca anymore" that are disappointing.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Leo Messi has peaked at the age of 26? To put that into perspective, Maradona's best playing days were when he was 24-31. He was 26 when he single handedly won the world cup (ironic huh?) but that was widely considered just the start of his dominance. You're reasoning is that Messi is peaking early because he started playing early? Maradona started playing professionally earlier.

Meanwhile players like Giggs are playing from the age of 18 in first team football all the way into their 40s, yet you are concerned that he is going to be on his way out of the team in a few years...Ok then.

If 38 goals in 39 games after having two injuries is a poor season, then I'd love to see your analysis of players like pedro and alves. Pedro too old also?

To dispel all of this rubbish, david villa is a different player at Atletico, obviously the way Tito was using him and playing the team was the problem and not Villa's ability.t.

Every player is different, just because you have players like Giggs and Beckham who were playing their best well into their 30's, it doesn't mean Messi, or any other player will be like that. Everyone peaks differently, there are no hard and fast rules.

Stats-wise, Messi is still extremely good, but you have got to admit that he is just a different player today. Not as fast, explosive, energetic as before. His finishing has been quite rusty for a while, and he gets dispossessed (loses the all) more often these days. Stats-wise, he is still at his peak; ability-wise, perhaps not.

Peaked or not, it doesn't matter. Millions of people like myself will continue to love him and enjoy him regardless. There is only one thing that really bothers me, which is his effort/attitude/work-rate. No matter how good or bad a player is, he or she has to give his/her all to deserve the money, attention, love being thrown at them.

 

[footyfan]

His average in the Champions League this season (excluding yesterday's game) is 8.2 km. So even by his lazy standards, he was lazy yesterday. You know you're bad when Zlatan Ibrahimovic runs 8 km more than you in the competition despite playing only 15 minutes more. (http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2014/statistics/round=2000479/players/index.html)

Some of the excuses given for him are perplexing. It's almost like Messi is too good to have to improve his game. It's almost as if the fact that he didn't run much before is a justification of his laziness yesterday, rather than providing evidence for how much he needs to change his game vs parked defences.

Space --> best player in the world
No space -->

 

[Luftstalag14]

This post sums it up excellently.

The Lebron comparison is actually key point to what Messi is. They share the same type athlete character.

I always felt at unease about Messi's character when he was younger, because I (and many other cules) felt that one day we would expect Messi to lead our team because he is the most gifted player to ever play the game. Thing was that he never showed his ambition to do it when he was younger either.

You look at athletes such as Jordan or Maradona. Players who literally took grasp of the sport by its neck tossed it from side to side until they achieved what they wanted. They came into their teams and said "I'm here, I'm the best in the world, and I'm going to lead my team to victory even even I have to drag them through hell to do it." Although those guys came off as egotistical and were controversial, their actions spoke for themselves with what they achieved in their respective sports.

I think the issue is that Messi has become too big for his own good. Can anyone think of a coach (other than Pep) or player who is going to come to Barca and have to nerve to risk pissing Messi off by benching him or yelling at him during a game? that individual would instantly come under fire from so many different parties.

I agree completely with the notion that has been mentioned that there has to be someone on the team to light a fire under every player's ass, because they are simply not good enough at the moment. But it really is a giant task, when you have someone like Messi who the entire world has an eye on. Either way, Tata is definitely not the man to do it.

We don't need Messi to be a leader necessarily though. Everyone is different, some people are leaders, some are not. And that's OK. I don't think anyone should fault Messi for not being a leader. Just let him play hs football.

I am not asking Messi to influence or lift the team to victory, even though that would have been really nice, all I am asking of him (or any other player on our team) is to do his best, give his all to the team, day in a day out.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

And its our failure to discipline and keep Messi motivated and focused on the team, not the Ballon d'or, that is causing this mess. I really agree with the sentiment that he has become much more selfish with his attitude on the pitch. The only time he comes alive and looks eager to do something is when he gets the ball, other than that, he just walks about the pitch. He doesn't press and he doesn't work defensively and its bullshit when 10 other players are pressing and doing the dirty work when he isn't. Afraid he will get injured actually defending? Play him less. I was rewatched the 2009 final after Atletico a few hours later and I was amazed at how different Messi played. He was constantly moving, constantly pressing, constantly searching and hunting for the ball. If anything, the current Messi looked more like Ronaldo in that game, producing flashes of brilliance when on the ball but not working for the team off of it. It was Messi's hunger and energy that allowed the false 9 system to work, and its the lack of both from him that is why we are still struggling now.

As soon as Pep left, Messi has grown into a shadow of the player he used to be. Yes he still produces moments of sheer and absolute brilliance, but he doesn't play with the general enthusiasm he used to. He looks jaded and I can't help but feel that its because Tito and Tata gave him free reign to do as he pleased. We need a coach who isn't afraid to get in Messi's ass and demand more for him, because he is capable of more. For the amount of respect he gets from coaches, he doesn't do enough on the pitch to lead this team through adversity or provide the leadership we need when we are struggling. Messi needs to be hungry again, to show passion and desire on and off the ball and the only way to do that is for the coach to be the authority in the locker room, not Messi.

The only player on the team now who I think shows that kind of Jordan like character to pull the team through hell to victor is Iniesta. I have no idea why Tata took him off so early and he was clearly disgruntled. So until we get a coach who has balls and can kick this team back into the gears it needs to be play at, we will go no where.

Either Luis Enrique or Frank de Boer are the only coaches I envision with that sort of tenacity (ruling out unrealistic coaches like Pep, Mou etc.) to fix our motivation and lack of leadership.

 

[JamDav1982]

We don't need Messi to be a leader necessarily though. Everyone is different, some people are leaders, some are not. And that's OK. I don't think anyone should fault Messi for not being a leader. Just let him play hs football.

I am not asking Messi to influence or lift the team to victory, even though that would have been really nice, all I am asking of him (or any other player on our team) is to do his best, give his all to the team, day in a day out.

Playing wise Messi is the leader of this team and has been for the last five years. It has always been him the team look to make a difference.

A leader is someone who guides the team through, takes control of situations and tries to pull the team through.

Messi has been that player for Barca. The most frustrating thing about the Atletico is not that he failed to lead the team and make a difference but that he did not even appear to put much effort into doing it

 

[JamDav1982]

And its our failure to discipline and keep Messi motivated and focused on what is causing this mess. I really agree with the sentiment that he has become much more selfish with his attitude on the pitch. The only time he comes alive and looks eager to do something is when he gets the ball, other than that, he just walks about the pitch. I was rewatched the 2009 final after Atletico a few hours later and I was amazed at how different Messi played. He was constantly moving, constantly pressing, constantly searching and hunting for the ball. That energy is what allowed the false 9 system to work.

Put as soon as Pep left, Messi has grown into a shadow of the player he used to be. Yes he still produces moments of sheer and absolute brilliance, but he doesn't play with the general enthusiasm he used to. He looks jaded and I can't help but feel that its because Tito and Tata gave him free reign to do as he pleased. We need a coach who isn't afraid to get in Messi's ass and demand more for him, because he is capable of more. For the amount of respect he gets from coaches, he doesn't do enough on the pitch to lead this team through adversity or provide the leadership we need when we are struggling. Messi needs to be hungry again, to show passion and desire on and off the ball and the only way to do that is for the coach to be the authority in the locker room, not Messi.

The only player on the team now who I think shows that kind of Jordan like character to pull the team through hell to victor is Iniesta. I have no idea why Tata took him off so early and he was clearly disgruntled. So until we get a coach who has balls and can kick this team back into the gears it needs to be play at, we will go no where.

Either Luis Enrique or Frank de Boer are the only coaches I envision with that sort of tenacity (ruling out unrealistic coaches like Pep, Mou etc.) to fix our motivation and lack of leadership.

Messi was already acting this way under Pep just not as frequently.

Pep never ruled Messi at all. He basically let him away with anything nd much more than other players would get.

Every manager has treated Messi differently than the other players and that includes Pep.

 

[Devils]

"It seems like every time he faces a stifling,physical defense in important matches,he gets disinterested and doesn't posses the killer instinct of a Jordan to persevere and find a way to lead the team.

People can say,well he has won it all so he lacks motivation,but Jordan had 5 rings and played for the 6-th like it was his first...you can't kill your desire to win."

Nonsense. Played in two Champions League finals, scored in both. He had a bad game, but we need to either change the philosophy of the team and the players or bring someone in who is able to get the best out of the players we have. Unfortunately, when the chips were down, Martino showed on wednesday that he didn't have what it takes to change a game.

I agree with you in the sense that yes, Messi has led us to victory under many occasions and performed brilliantly on the biggest stages of them all against the most fierce competition. No one will ever forget the way he's dismantled the likes of Real Madrid, United and Arsenal.

But there is a big difference in possessing that sort of mentality naturally as opposed to having it instilled upon you by someone as brilliant as Pep.

I absolutely don't agree with the statement that Messi peaked 2 years ago, I think it's bullshit.

I truly believe that what Messi is missing is someone to instil that unstoppable animalistic mentality that Pep was able to bring to the team. I think it's more important to Messi than any sort of tactical positioning that people are using as an excuse for his poor performance yesterday.

Pep and Messi combined are truly the holy grail of football. You have the most talented player to ever play the game being imposed by tactical and motivational genius such as Pep. Once you take Pep out of the picture you can clearly see how Messi has faded tactically and motivationally.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

Messi was already acting this way under Pep just not as frequently.

Pep never ruled Messi at all. He basically let him away with anything nd much more than other players would get.

Every manager has treated Messi differently than the other players and that includes Pep.

Nah. If Pep saw the effort Messi was putting into his defensive work and work ethic now, he would have none of it. You see Messi back then was earning the differential treatment from Pep because of his performances on the pitch. Even after we had won everything until Pep's last season, Messi's overall work ethic wasn't nearly as bad as it was now. If it did drop at all, it was either through fatigue or slight overconfidence.

I'm sorry, but you can't convince me Pep would be pleased at the way Messi plays his game now. When he first got to Barca, he told Messi he was the best player in the world on the ball, and that he was going to make him the best off the ball. We all saw the results of that, with both him coming and now him leaving.

 

[Armando929]

^^^^Well remember Pep said that when he left it had to do with being "unable to motivate" the players anymore. And I guess considering all they've won, it would be easy to get comfortable.

Messi in particular doesn't have any competition. Its not like there's anyone who can push him for playing time. Physically I think Messi has still got it. And I don't expect him to hit the ridiculous numbers he did for 4 straight years. He's still the best player in the world regardless of how many goals he scores. Its a question of hunger and motivation. And yes, having a great manager like Pep is definitely a factor.

And as someone mentioned earlier, under Pep Messi did more work for the team. Was he the best then? Absolutely. But he still did the little things like pressing defenders, trying to win the ball back, providing constant movement; not just looking to score goals and go on mazy dribbles while surrounded by 3-4 defenders.

Barca hasn't had a true manager since Pep left.

 

[JamDav1982]

Nah. If Pep saw the effort Messi was putting into his defensive work and work ethic now, he would have none of it. You see Messi back then was earning the differential treatment from Pep because of his performances on the pitch. Even after we had won everything until Pep's last season, Messi's overall work ethic wasn't nearly as bad as it was now. If it did drop at all, it was either through fatigue or slight overconfidence.

I'm sorry, but you can't convince me Pep would be pleased at the way Messi plays his game now. When he first got to Barca, he told Messi he was the best player in the world on the ball, and that he was going to make him the best off the ball. We all saw the results of that, with both him coming and now him leaving.

You act like Pep ruled Messi with an iron rod. In reality he didnt and Messi was about the only player he did not have that kind of control over.

Pep would not even sub Messi off without his approval.

Pep knew that to get the best out of Messi you had to treat him differently than the other players and above all keep him happy. That is fine for a while but in the end will cause problems.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

I think the reasons Pep stated to the media why he was leaving was only a small portion of the real reasons that motivated him. I am almost convinced that he knew how much of a sleazeball Rosell was and wanted nothing to do with him, saw the games the board were going to play (dictating the squad, forcing him to play big names, etc.) and was just like fuck it, why should I win for this asshole?

Particularly when you consider how much of a lack of knowledge our current board has on how to run a sporting club (not a business) and how they immediately started a smear campaign against all the people who were important to him at the club (Laporta, Cryuff), how can you blame him for leaving?

 

[JamDav1982]

I think the reasons Pep stated to the media why he was leaving was only a small portion of the real reasons that motivated him. I am almost convinced that he knew how much of a sleazeball Rosell was and wanted nothing to do with him, saw the games the board were going to play (dictating the squad, forcing him to play big names, etc.) and was just like fuck it, why should I win for this asshole?

Particularly when you consider how much of a lack of knowledge our current board has on how to run a sporting club (not a business) and how they immediately started a smear campaign against all the people who were important to him at the club (Laporta, Cryuff), how can you blame him for leaving?

Well that is pure speculation and nothing to do with the reasons given by Pep - reasons that actually make sense.

It is clear he left as the team were not responding to his ideas. He stayed a long time for a Barcelona manager and said from day one that he would not be there much longer than he ended up being.

It is almost impossible to manage a club like Barcelona for longer than that.

 

[i_bleed_blaugrana]

You act like Pep ruled Messi with an iron rod. In reality he didnt and Messi was about the only player he did not have that kind of control over.

Pep would not even sub Messi off without his approval.

Pep knew that to get the best out of Messi you had to treat him differently than the other players and above all keep him happy. That is fine for a while but in the end will cause problems.

Jesus, I feel like you just disagree with me just for the sake of argument...

So you really think that Pep would continue to cottle Messi with the way he is playing now?

I'm not saying Pep ruled him with an iron rod, but he certainly kept him motivated and focused. The new diet, the sleep regime and many other things Pep put in place helped Messi become what he is today.

I know Pep says he left because he couldn't motivate the players but other than Pique who mainly had his head up his ass because he started screwing Shakira, I can't imagine any time under Pep when the players lack effort, focus and motivation and if they did, he would be on the sidelines, trying to get them to wake up.

That is what is missing. And its not a trait only Pep possesses.