10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Sumlit]

Yep. The judge overruling the prosecution is the most interesting part.

Despite support from the public prosecutor's office for the appeal presented by Messi on the basis that it believes that there is no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the player, and which requested "the dismissal of proceedings to that effect," the public prosecutor challenged the appeal and the judge ruled that it is a "subjective opinion" that Messi "was on the periphery of the financial, contractual and tax management of his income," despite his father's control over those matters.

From As

Subjective opinion

No evidence you say. "Evidence shmevidece" says the judge. "I had a dream he knew about it, so bring him in!"

 

[Luftstalag14]

Wait, I thought the judge had made the decision to include Messi on the list of defendants a while ago? So what is new?

This is sickening. Have they set the court date yet?

This BS more than anything might force Messi to think about leaving Spain.

 

[DonAK]

Why would this force Messi to leave Spain lol? If the prosecutors and fiscal authorities couldn't find any evidence linking Messi to the case then there is nothing to worry about, he won't be found guilty suddenly out of the blue.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Why would this force Messi to leave Spain lol? If the prosecutors and fiscal authorities couldn't find any evidence linking Messi to the case then there is nothing to worry about, he won't be found guilty suddenly out of the blue.

The hostile authorities and media smear campaigns.

Still, this will distract him from training and playing both physically and mentally.

 

[amircule]

Ranked in what? If you're talking about the world cup, Suarez had one good match and Di Maria was inconsistent except the winning goal vs Switzerland.

Uefa player of the year , James finished ahead of dimaria and suarez

 

[Gaudi]

I just read some croatian article, but apparently taken from La Goleada and Enrique Marqués talked about Messi's vomiting. So he vomited against PSG? Haven't seen that, did it happen?
Well anyway he says he talked with doctors, experts and so on and he knows what's wrong: apparently sinus problems so when he's temperature rises and nose starts to form mucus and so on...you get the picture.
Anyway he says doctors are affraid to use steroid sprays because of doping control.
Interesting, since I have those problems and it is true I sometimes get more tired during workout (not always) and my stomach can feel strange.

 

[footyfan]

Strange that the judge persisted even though the prosecutor agreed with the appeal. Just as it looked like Messi was getting back to his best and happy with things, this happens. I doubt he'll be convicted personally.

I don't think it's in question whether the Messi family defrauded the government. They did. They set up shell companies in Uruguay and Belize to circumvent the Spanish tax system and underreport Messi's earnings from contracts.

Only Messi's involvement is in question. The judge said that in Spain, the threshold for guilt is lower than what the prosecution thought. You don't need to know the legal and accounting intricacies of the scheme to be found guilty, just being aware of the plan is enough.

From BBC article:

"In this type of crime, it is not necessary for someone to have complete knowledge of all the accounting and business operations nor the exact quantity, rather it is sufficient to be aware of the designs to commit fraud and consent to them."

So it all boils down to what kind of conversation Messi and his father had when carrying out the scheme. I'm pretty sure Messi's father is implicated regardless of Messi's involvement and it will be interesting to see what kind of punishment he gets. I don't think Messi will face any issues besides inconveniences like attending court dates and paying fines.

I personally find it unlikely that Messi knew nothing about it, because you have to sign a lot of stuff to create these shell companies and you'd be crazy to blindly sign whatever papers your dad puts in front of you without the least bit of curiosity. Or maybe not. This is Messi after all. He's a good boy who only wants to play football. His father could have genuinely fooled him or told him everything was legal and above water.

 

[Sumlit]

I don't think it's in question whether the Messi family defrauded the government. They did. They set up shell companies in Uruguay and Belize to circumvent the Spanish tax system and underreport Messi's earnings from contracts.

Only Messi's involvement is in question. The judge said that in Spain, the threshold for guilt is lower than what the prosecution thought. You don't need to know the legal and accounting intricacies of the scheme to be found guilty, just being aware of the plan is enough.

From BBC article:



So it all boils down to what kind of conversation Messi and his father had when carrying out the scheme. I'm pretty sure Messi's father is implicated regardless of Messi's involvement and it will be interesting to see what kind of punishment he gets. I don't think Messi will face any issues besides inconveniences like attending court dates and paying fines.

I personally find it unlikely that Messi knew nothing about it, because you have to sign a lot of stuff to create these shell companies and you'd be crazy to blindly sign whatever papers your dad puts in front of you without the least bit of curiosity. Or maybe not. This is Messi after all. He's a good boy who only wants to play football. His father could have genuinely fooled him or told him everything was legal and above water.

Shell/offshore/representative companies are not illegal. The mere existence of them does not prove defraudment or illegality, nor does circumventing the Spanish tax system with them.

Representative companies cashing in overseas income in your name and paying lesser taxes in other countries in order to avoid Spanish asphyxiating tax laws is not illegal, much as it may bother Spanish tax authorities. It would be foolish to pay 55% taxation in Spain when you can legally claim that income in another country for 15%. There are some incomes that cannot avoid taxation in Spain, like wages and local endorsements, but overseas image income could be loopholed into other countries to pay lesser taxes.

Also, btw, most of these shell companies in question were established when Messi was still 17 and therefore under age by Spanish laws. I don't really see how they can go and prove without a doubt that Messi knowingly and willingly was part of the alleged defrauding. Hacienda and the prosecution thought Messi didn't need to be in the trial because of lack of evidence of involvement, it is the judge deciding he should be mostly based on, by his own words, "subjective opinion"

 

[Luftstalag14]

At this point, I only hope the trial will not be protracted and Messi will only need to appear once or a couple of times to minimize the impact on training and playing. And I hope he won't be bothered too much by it.

Do expect the hostile press to turn this into a drama.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Shell/offshore/representative companies are not illegal. The mere existence of them does not prove defraudment or illegality, nor does circumventing the Spanish tax system with them.

Representative companies cashing in overseas income in your name and paying lesser taxes in other countries in order to avoid Spanish asphyxiating tax laws is not illegal, much as it may bother Spanish tax authorities. It would be foolish to pay 55% taxation in Spain when you can legally claim that income in another country for 15%. There are some incomes that cannot avoid taxation in Spain, like wages and local endorsements, but overseas image income could be loopholed into other countries to pay lesser taxes.

Also, btw, most of these shell companies in question were established when Messi was still 17 and therefore under age by Spanish laws. I don't really see how they can go and prove without a doubt that Messi knowingly and willingly was part of the alleged defrauding. Hacienda and the prosecution thought Messi didn't need to be in the trial because of lack of evidence of involvement, it is the judge deciding he should be mostly based on, by his own words, "subjective opinion"

This. I think most of us don't know the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance.

 

[Vilarrubi]

I find it hilarious that people who dislike Messi use "him not paying taxes" as an insult towards him, when 99% of the population hate paying taxes themselves and would love to get one over on their greedy government.

 

[Luftstalag14]

If found guilty, both Messis could be fined up to 21 million euros and receive a one-year suspended prison sentence. The two men have five days to appeal Friday's ruling.

La Liga clubs and players have long used "image rights" to avoid paying higher income tax rates, while the Spanish authorities have regularly found this approach to be illegal, with current Barcelona coach Luis Enrique among those who have previously made a settlement.

Casillas was let off the hook after paying 2m in back taxes. Why not Messi? All signs are pointing to a witch hunt and Messi is to be made an example by the Spanish authorities.

 

[Mitchell1978]

This. I think most of us don't know the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance.

I'm pretty shure Messi and probably his father too thought these constructions were perfectly legal. They were probably badly advised.

 

[footyfan]

Shell/offshore/representative companies are not illegal. The mere existence of them does not prove defraudment or illegality, nor does circumventing the Spanish tax system with them.

Representative companies cashing in overseas income in your name and paying lesser taxes in other countries in order to avoid Spanish asphyxiating tax laws is not illegal, much as it may bother Spanish tax authorities. It would be foolish to pay 55% taxation in Spain when you can legally claim that income in another country for 15%. There are some incomes that cannot avoid taxation in Spain, like wages and local endorsements, but overseas image income could be loopholed into other countries to pay lesser taxes.

Also, btw, most of these shell companies in question were established when Messi was still 17 and therefore under age by Spanish laws. I don't really see how they can go and prove without a doubt that Messi knowingly and willingly was part of the alleged defrauding. Hacienda and the prosecution thought Messi didn't need to be in the trial because of lack of evidence of involvement, it is the judge deciding he should be mostly based on, by his own words, "subjective opinion"

I'm not too sure that it's not illegal. In the US, it's not illegal. That's the point of the double Irish arrangement. In Spain, it could be. Infact, it probably is (I'm not just talking about existence of shell companies but their use to avoid/evade taxes). They are charging him for tax evasion after all. I'm unsure if Spain even has the concept of tax avoidance. Even if it's not illegal, the amounts that you can allocate to offshore companies is also a point of dispute. In complex tax cases like this, you have to be really careful that you're not breaking rules for your jurisdiction. The fact that Messi paid back-taxes of 5M is not encouraging. If his advisors were sure they didn't commit any offences, they should not have advised him to pay these back-taxes.

Messi turned 18 in 2005. These charges relate to the 2007-2009 period. The under-age excuse might not work. I agree it's going to be difficult to prove Messi's involvement. But I'm not sure about the level of evidence required. I don't think they need to 'prove without a doubt' as you put it. 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is used in criminal cases in the US and for civil cases, preponderance of the evidence is used (for eg. in A vs B, A only needs to have 51% of the evidence favoring him in order to win the case) which is a much less stricter level.

 

[Sumlit]

I'm not too sure that it's not illegal. In the US, it's not illegal. That's the point of the double Irish arrangement. In Spain, it could be. Infact, it probably is (I'm not just talking about existence of shell companies but their use to avoid/evade taxes). They are charging him for tax evasion after all. I'm unsure if Spain even has the concept of tax avoidance. Even if it's not illegal, the amounts that you can allocate to offshore companies is also a point of dispute. In complex tax cases like this, you have to be really careful that you're not breaking rules for your jurisdiction. The fact that Messi paid back-taxes of 5M is not encouraging. If his advisors were sure they didn't commit any offences, they should not have advised him to pay these back-taxes.

Messi turned 18 in 2005. These charges relate to the 2007-2009 period. The under-age excuse might not work. I agree it's going to be difficult to prove Messi's involvement. But I'm not sure about the level of evidence required. I don't think they need to 'prove without a doubt' as you put it. 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is used in criminal cases in the US and for civil cases, preponderance of the evidence is used (for eg. in A vs B, A only needs to have 51% of the evidence favoring him in order to win the case) which is a much less stricter level.

Well I don't know how Spain can legally claim taxation from a dual citizenship individual when the income is coming from out of Spain. It would not seem logical, but you have a point, it is Spain.

Some of the alleged signatures and notary certifications that are supposed to prove Messi's knowledge and implications in this originated back in 03-05. The charges might have come from after 07, but apparently the setting up of these companies date back a couple of years more. Like the one in Belize, that company apparently has some image rights from Messi dating back to 05 when Messi was 17.
And yes I do agree about the reasonable doubt, however how can you even prove beyond reasonable doubt something like this? Short of document/audio/video from Messi specifically giving instructions and/or being explained and showing understanding, how can you ever prove willingness and knowledge beyond a reasonable doubt?