10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Ursegor]

Ursegor, you're just forgetting Messi is having to work a lot more now, going deeper more often than previously, when he was always closer to goal than he is now. Thus getting more tired, thus not being as clinical in front of goal anymore. migeru is spot on, you're not. Deal with it

Flavia, pls. We both know I'm never wrong. :eusa_think:

This theory about "Messi playing deeper => doing more => too tired to score goals" is your typical Twitter armchair analysis ridiculousness. The season has already taken a toll on Messi physically? In November? Is lolgeru his personal physical coach? That theory completely ignores the number 1 change in Messi's game since 2011 which contradicts it completely: Messi is barely pressing or running off the ball anymore. He showed some glimpses under Scrubrique but still far away from the workrate he was putting in consistently pre 2012. Remember in 11/12 in the Bernabeu Clasico he almost got sent off with a 2nd yellow for harrassing Alonso non-stop. A lot more tiring system yet he scored 50 goals that season. In La Liga alone. It also ignores that Messi isn't really playing that much deeper as people pretend. He has more passing options now because Nerman and Suarez are joining the box more often but that doesn't put Messi 20 yards deeper. He's playing as high up the pitch as ever, give or take 5 yards, I'm sure all heatmaps will confirm that. Also remember, it was Messi himself who wanted to play off a striker. Remember the Milan game? "Villa played infront of me, I had more space." Everyone was in agreement, lolgeru included: "Messi needs a #9". When Tata played him close to the box that also somehow didn't suit him because he is not a pure #9 and excuses were out again from the same Twitter experts, how Messi needs to see more of the ball in deeper positions with a #9 infront of him.

What the point Usegor, are you posting gifs of all Messi's shot not converted? What is that supposed to prove really?

Messi never missed shots before?

Well, that's why I posted the ones he would have most likely scored (I'd say at least 8 of the 12) a year ago and left out the other 30 gifs.

My point is that he doesn't need poor excuses like "he can't score goals because he's doing too much now and the midfielders don't assist him directly". He has played like this before, contributing even more in buildup, creating his own chances and scoring more than 1 goal per game.

 

[Sumlit]

That Messi have to move back more to help midfield is true, but that it would affect his finishing so much i think is as valid as "hes saving himself for xxxx"

It does affect it. He's having to exert himself and spend more energy in other areas and the tradeoff is a more tired and less composed player infront of goal. Much like it happened in the WC.

The midfield creating and flow burden cannot be solely on Messi, as it very much seems to be right now.

 

[Flavia]

Flavia, pls. We both know I'm never wrong. :eusa_think:

This theory about "Messi playing deeper => doing more => too tired to score goals" is your typical Twitter armchair analysis ridiculousness. The season has already taken a toll on Messi physically? In November? Is lolgeru his personal physical coach? That theory completely ignores the number 1 change in Messi's game since 2011 which contradicts it completely: Messi is barely pressing or running off the ball anymore. He showed some glimpses under Scrubrique but still far away from the workrate he was putting in consistently pre 2012. Remember in 11/12 in the Bernabeu Clasico he almost got sent off with a 2nd yellow for harrassing Alonso non-stop. A lot more tiring system yet he scored 50 goals that season. In La Liga alone. It also ignores that Messi isn't really playing that much deeper as people pretend. He has more passing options now because Nerman and Suarez are joining the box more often but that doesn't put Messi 20 yards deeper. He's playing as high up the pitch as ever, give or take 5 yards, I'm sure all heatmaps will confirm that. Also remember, it was Messi himself who wanted to play off a striker. Remember the Milan game? "Villa played infront of me, I had more space." Everyone was in agreement, lolgeru included: "Messi needs a #9". When Tata played him close to the box that also somehow didn't suit him because he is not a pure #9 and excuses were out again from the same Twitter experts, how Messi needs to see more of the ball in deeper positions with a #9 infront of him.

Playing off a striker is different from what's he's doing. Messi was playing rb for a bit vs Almeria.

He's playing a lot deeper this season, and, much like in the almeria game, he keeps the ball, the other players stay static looking at him, and he goes from one edge of the box to the other. No one to pass the ball to. So he loses the ball and almeria scored. No one is pretending he is playing deeper, he is. You're ignoring it for some reason. There is no support for him from the midfield, and he always had that before. Now he is doing 95% of what the midfield should be doing.

And don't forget the amount of minutes he played non stop all those years. Almost no rest. I wish he had a role like cr right now, only worrying to score, with a full team backing him up on this. And not be burdened with all the creative input of a team.

 

[Irish_Cules]

Flavia, pls. We both know I'm never wrong. :eusa_think:

This theory about "Messi playing deeper => doing more => too tired to score goals" is your typical Twitter armchair analysis ridiculousness. The season has already taken a toll on Messi physically? In November? Is lolgeru his personal physical coach? That theory completely ignores the number 1 change in Messi's game since 2011 which contradicts it completely: Messi is barely pressing or running off the ball anymore. He showed some glimpses under Scrubrique but still far away from the workrate he was putting in consistently pre 2012. Remember in 11/12 in the Bernabeu Clasico he almost got sent off with a 2nd yellow for harrassing Alonso non-stop. A lot more tiring system yet he scored 50 goals that season. In La Liga alone. It also ignores that Messi isn't really playing that much deeper as people pretend. He has more passing options now because Nerman and Suarez are joining the box more often but that doesn't put Messi 20 yards deeper. He's playing as high up the pitch as ever, give or take 5 yards, I'm sure all heatmaps will confirm that. Also remember, it was Messi himself who wanted to play off a striker. Remember the Milan game? "Villa played infront of me, I had more space." Everyone was in agreement, lolgeru included: "Messi needs a #9". When Tata played him close to the box that also somehow didn't suit him because he is not a pure #9 and excuses were out again from the same Twitter experts, how Messi needs to see more of the ball in deeper positions with a #9 infront of him.



Well, that's why I posted the ones he would have most likely scored (I'd say at least 8 of the 12) a year ago and left out the other 30 gifs.

My point is that he doesn't need poor excuses like "he can't score goals because he's doing too much now and the midfielders don't assist him directly". He has played like this before, contributing even more in buildup, creating his own chances and scoring more than 1 goal per game.

I agree that the notion that he is playing deeper is overstated. What is certainly true though is that he is being asked to do to much within the current set-up. Sure, Messi has always created goals for himself and others but he also had Xavi and Iniesta doing much of the creating as well. The midfield is non existent now and it is resulting in Messi being our only playmaker. This isn't the reason he isn't scoring as much,( his finishing hasn't been up to scratch ) but it's a huge problem for the team.

 

[Sumlit]

Flavia, pls. We both know I'm never wrong. :eusa_think:

This theory about "Messi playing deeper => doing more => too tired to score goals" is your typical Twitter armchair analysis ridiculousness. The season has already taken a toll on Messi physically? In November? Is lolgeru his personal physical coach? That theory completely ignores the number 1 change in Messi's game since 2011 which contradicts it completely: Messi is barely pressing or running off the ball anymore. He showed some glimpses under Scrubrique but still far away from the workrate he was putting in consistently pre 2012. Remember in 11/12 in the Bernabeu Clasico he almost got sent off with a 2nd yellow for harrassing Alonso non-stop. A lot more tiring system yet he scored 50 goals that season. In La Liga alone. It also ignores that Messi isn't really playing that much deeper as people pretend. He has more passing options now because Nerman and Suarez are joining the box more often but that doesn't put Messi 20 yards deeper. He's playing as high up the pitch as ever, give or take 5 yards, I'm sure all heatmaps will confirm that. Also remember, it was Messi himself who wanted to play off a striker. Remember the Milan game? "Villa played infront of me, I had more space." Everyone was in agreement, lolgeru included: "Messi needs a #9". When Tata played him close to the box that also somehow didn't suit him because he is not a pure #9 and excuses were out again from the same Twitter experts, how Messi needs to see more of the ball in deeper positions with a #9 infront of him.



Well, that's why I posted the ones he would have most likely scored (I'd say at least 8 of the 12) a year ago and left out the other 30 gifs.

My point is that he doesn't need poor excuses like "he can't score goals because he's doing too much now and the midfielders don't assist him directly". He has played like this before, contributing even more in buildup, creating his own chances and scoring more than 1 goal per game.

Messi has played free before, and dropped deep before as well, but never has the sole creative burden been on him as much as it is now, just like it was for Argentina in the WC. The only relief he gets is when Xavi is on the field. There is absolutely no question that Messi is having to do more for the overall offensive flow of this team than he has had to do in the past.

In years past when the sole scoring burden was on him, he still had a supporting and creative midfield, and he had Cesc who despite his flaws could at least deliver balls to Leo, he was just missing support from the forward line. Now he has the supporting partners at the front, but nothing at the back so he has had to assume that role himself.

If you cannot see how much more Messi is doing to keep this team flowing offensively, then I don't know what else to tell you. That the additional burden is affecting his finishing, well we can debate that, but his finishing is not as sharp as it was just a year ago, so it's either that, or he forgot how to do it altogether.

 

[Ursegor]

Playing off a striker is different from what's he's doing. Messi was playing rb for a bit vs Almeria.

He's playing a lot deeper this season, and, much like in the almeria game, he keeps the ball, the other players stay static looking at him, and he goes from one edge of the box to the other. No one to pass the ball to. So he loses the ball and almeria scored. No one is pretending he is playing deeper, he is. You're ignoring it for some reason. There is no support for him from the midfield, and he always had that before. Now he is doing 95% of what the midfield should be doing.

Your taking 1 single picture of 90 minutes out of context. I remember that situation. He was holding his tigh looking like he was injured and stayed back and didn't get back into position. That's not the norm, he's not playing "rightback", fss. Here is the reality:

Messi vs. Malaga in 12/13 under Tito (his best ever scoring form). Where he received all his passes:

Here is Messi against Eibar this season and where he received all his passes:

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

Talking about taking something out of context.

 

[iniesta_8]

for 400'000 € / week Messi is supposed to run at least as much as a 34 years old Xavi

 

[Sumlit]

And btw the notion that tiredness does not affect finishing is erroneous. The enemy of forwards is tiredness. My youth coach had a saying he repeated constantly to us which was "a tired forward is a useless footballer"

No other position on the field loses as much efficiency from the effects of fatigue than the forwards. Other positions can function at high levels even when fatigued, but a fatigued forward is at a huge disadvantage. Forwards have the least space, are the most covered, need the sharpest touches, have the least time to make decisions and have the shortest windows for finishing than any other position on the field. Fatigued wrecks all that and reduces your efficiency.

There's a reason forwards are among the players who run the least in games, yet are the most often substituted players on the field.

 

[Ursegor]

And btw the notion that tiredness does not affect finishing is erroneous. The enemy of forwards is tiredness. My youth coach had a saying he repeated constantly to us which was "a tired forward is a useless footballer"

No other position on the field loses as much efficiency from the effects of fatigue than the forwards. Other positions can function at high levels even when fatigued, but a fatigued forward is at a huge disadvantage. Forwards have the least space, are the most covered, need the sharpest touches, have the least time to make decisions and have the shortest windows for finishing than any other position on the field. Fatigued wrecks all that and reduces your efficiency.

There's a reason forwards are among the players who run the least in games, yet are the most often substituted players on the field.

Even more reason why, if that theory applies, Messi under Guardiola was at a bigger disadvantage than he is now.

 

[Flavia]

Here are the passes he received vs almeria:

Far from the goal. Even looking like he played rw there.

Even more reason why, if that theory applies, Messi under Guardiola was at a bigger disadvantage than he is now.

How? He was younger and with less minutes on his legs. And he also would go anonymous for portions of the matches, that's when he learned to rest while playing. He saved his energy through out the match.

 

[Sumlit]

Even more reason why, if that theory applies, Messi under Guardiola was at a bigger disadvantage than he is now.

How so? Messi under Guardiola neither had to carry the creative burden he does this season, nor did he have so little support from midfield. Never-mind also Messi was a 22 year old kid then.

 

[Ursegor]

Messi was 25 in 2012 when he scored 50 league goals, not 22. It was his 4th consecutive season in a high pressing team. Just to get this out of the way.

The loss of midfield dominance is a different issue. Sure, it is a valid excuse to a certain extend but only as far as a "in a better team you have it easier" commonplace. It's taking it too far to claim Messi isn't getting the ball enough in the final third and playing considerably deeper than ever before which is tiring him out to finish properly when he finally gets in the box. Barca might not dominate and control games the same way anymore in the middle of the park but chance creation in the final third is still there. Even in total clusterfuck of games like Almeria and Celta the woodwoork was rattled a combined 7 times. Even in the Bernabeu could have gone 2 goals up against a far superior team right now. Barca might not be Pep's Barca anymore but behind Madrid and Bayern this is still a top 3 team, at worst top 5 if you are a total doom monger who considers Dortmund and Chelsea superior. Can Messi only be Messi when he has prime Xavi and Iniesta?

There was never a correlation between Xavi's and Iniesta's assists and Messi's goals so why start using lack of midfield assists as an excuse now? Madrid's numbers are so high because they are playing with 4 midfielders, Isco and James are actually playing wide and Kroos is padding gazillion assists from set pieces only. In 10/11 the Barca midfield had a combined 13 assists in 38 games and most of them didn't even go to Messi. The biggest strength of Barca's midfield under Pep was game control and ball circulation more than chance creation. The main burdgen of creativity in the final third was always Messi's. 5-0 Clasico actually has to be the prime example. Don't remember anyone putting Messi through on goal but Messi assisted twice.

 

[Sumlit]

Messi was 25 in 2012 when he scored 50 league goals, not 22. It was his 4th consecutive season in a high pressing team. Just to get this out of the way.

The loss of midfield dominance is a different issue. Sure, it is a valid excuse to a certain extend but only as far as a "in a better team you have it easier" commonplace. It's taking it too far to claim Messi isn't getting the ball enough in the final third and playing considerably deeper than ever before which is tiring him out to finish properly when he finally gets in the box. Barca might not dominate and control games the same way anymore in the middle of the park but chance creation in the final third is still there. Even in total clusterfuck of games like Almeria and Celta the woodwoork was rattled a combined 7 times. Even in the Bernabeu could have gone 2 goals up against a far superior team right now. Barca might not be Pep's Barca anymore but behind Madrid and Bayern this is still a top 3 team, at worst top 5 if you are a total doom monger who considers Dortmund and Chelsea superior. Can Messi only be Messi when he has prime Xavi and Iniesta?

There was never a correlation between Xavi's and Iniesta's assists and Messi's goals so why start using lack of midfield assists as an excuse now? Madrid's numbers are so high because they are playing with 4 midfielders, Isco and James are actually playing wide and Kroos is padding gazillion assists from set pieces only. In 10/11 the Barca midfield had a combined 13 assists in 38 games and most of them didn't even go to Messi. The biggest strength of Barca's midfield under Pep was game control and ball circulation more than chance creation. The main burdgen of creativity in the final third was always Messi's. 5-0 Clasico actually has to be the prime example. Don't remember anyone putting Messi through on goal but Messi assisted twice.

Well you just said Messi under Guardiola, you did not specify which year under Guardiola, hence the 22 year old comment.

As to the rest, it is pretty indisputable that Messi is getting neither the same amount of touches he used, nor in the same area he used, nor surrounded by able passing partners as he used to, nor service in the final third as he used to. It is also indisputable that he is having to create more and more than he used to, and has less and less help to do so as he used to.

You speak about chances created in the past games, but you fail to mention that an uncommon amount of those chances are being created by Messi himself. He is both the main creator and main executioner on the team. The burden on him on this team today, is beyond clear and very large.

Messi doesn't need Xavi and Iniesta to be Messi, but what he does need is a semblance of a supporting and structure midfield to support him. He still needs partners to play with, and he either needs the creative burden on him lessened by others creating as well, or otherwise for people to realize that if he has to invest himself so heavily in creating and conducting the team, then inevitably his scoring output and scoring efficiency will take a hit.

 

[suckabov]

Messi was 25 in 2012 when he scored 50 league goals, not 22. It was his 4th consecutive season in a high pressing team. Just to get this out of the way.

Since we're nitpicking now, Messi was 24 the season he "scored 50 league goals". He turned 25 in June '12. And the number 22 was only mentioned in response to your "Messi under Guardiola" claim, and he was 22 under Guardiola (09-10).