10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[footyfan]

These don't look like they came from jiopi.

hmmmm :eusa_think:

 

[DonAK]

Ursegor/The Observer/jiopi


:eusa_think:

 

[SeloBarca]

The system is crap, midfield is way to wide, and messi has to drop down to help midfield, that is all true. But the chances he has had, that ursegor linked, are not created from rushing form midfield.
And hes moving less without ball then before 2012, so he shouldnt really be THAT tired. Thats kinda grasping at straws.

 

[evilhita666]

Stereotypes are mostly true, they just lack sensibility because you are lumping everyone into one category and not allowing for individuality.

As a Cuban, my people are stereotyped as being very loud and boisterous. I can tell you that is very much the case, even though I am a rather quiet and reserved person myself.

Still, stereotypes can be as offensive as racism because both are forms of discrimination... As a colombian I get labeled as a drug dealer frequently and that doesn't feel right, as I suppose it doesn't feel right for an american to be labeled as ignorant inbred redneck...

There's a big difference between generalization and stereotypes, because stereotypes most of the time are created to highlight or exaggerate a shortcoming, just like racism...

EDIT: WTF, this is Leo's thread, hahaha...

 

[footyfan]

Flavia, pls. We both know I'm never wrong. :eusa_think:

This theory about "Messi playing deeper => doing more => too tired to score goals" is your typical Twitter armchair analysis ridiculousness. The season has already taken a toll on Messi physically? In November? Is lolgeru his personal physical coach? That theory completely ignores the number 1 change in Messi's game since 2011 which contradicts it completely: Messi is barely pressing or running off the ball anymore. He showed some glimpses under Scrubrique but still far away from the workrate he was putting in consistently pre 2012. Remember in 11/12 in the Bernabeu Clasico he almost got sent off with a 2nd yellow for harrassing Alonso non-stop. A lot more tiring system yet he scored 50 goals that season. In La Liga alone. It also ignores that Messi isn't really playing that much deeper as people pretend. He has more passing options now because Nerman and Suarez are joining the box more often but that doesn't put Messi 20 yards deeper. He's playing as high up the pitch as ever, give or take 5 yards, I'm sure all heatmaps will confirm that. Also remember, it was Messi himself who wanted to play off a striker. Remember the Milan game? "Villa played infront of me, I had more space." Everyone was in agreement, lolgeru included: "Messi needs a #9". When Tata played him close to the box that also somehow didn't suit him because he is not a pure #9 and excuses were out again from the same Twitter experts, how Messi needs to see more of the ball in deeper positions with a #9 infront of him.



Well, that's why I posted the ones he would have most likely scored (I'd say at least 8 of the 12) a year ago and left out the other 30 gifs.

My point is that he doesn't need poor excuses like "he can't score goals because he's doing too much now and the midfielders don't assist him directly". He has played like this before, contributing even more in buildup, creating his own chances and scoring more than 1 goal per game.

Damn, you really hate twitter dont you?

Join the club. Most of the popular users there are egomaniacs whose pride seems to have been inflated by meaningless retweets and favorites from the hive minds. Also, really what kind of analysis can actually be completed in 280-420 characters? The medium necessitates making tenuous assumptions and contrived relationships between cause and effect, while neglecting the incredible randomness that is prevalent in most cases. Everything has to be related! There are no possibilities for anomalies or chance! Or of effects that reside outside the public knowledge domain!

Ursegor, you're just forgetting Messi is having to work a lot more now, going deeper more often than previously, when he was always closer to goal than he is now. Thus getting more tired, thus not being as clinical in front of goal anymore. migeru is spot on, you're not. Deal with it

I have to agree with Ursegor. I've been reading migeru for quite a while now. While he makes good points on occasion and is definitely not a bellend, he like most others tends to explain things with whatever (incomplete) information he has without recognizing that there's a lot that none of us know. It's cool, I used to be like that too, and when I realized upon looking back that in many cases I was wrong, I stopped trying to explain things and just started to comment only on stuff that I could see during games on screen.

 

[Sumlit]

Still, stereotypes can be as offensive as racism because both are forms of discrimination... As a colombian I get labeled as a drug dealer frequently and that doesn't feel right, as I suppose it doesn't feel right for an american to be labeled as ignorant inbred redneck...

There's a big difference between generalization and stereotypes, because stereotypes most of the time are created to highlight or exaggerate a shortcoming, just like racism...

EDIT: WTF, this is Leo's thread, hahaha...

Damn I thought we had ended this discussion

But yeah, stereotypes can be offensive just as well. They're just a poor descriptive of a group, even if they are created based on a certain and sometimes true perception, it's still terrible to lump a group of people under a general heading and take away any type of individuality. They're even worse when they are just plain untruthful like for example the Colombian drug dealer example you mentioned, that would piss me off too as a fellow Hispanic.

 

[Ursegor]

Well you just said Messi under Guardiola, you did not specify which year under Guardiola, hence the 22 year old comment.

As to the rest, it is pretty indisputable that Messi is getting neither the same amount of touches he used, nor in the same area he used, nor surrounded by able passing partners as he used to, nor service in the final third as he used to. It is also indisputable that he is having to create more and more than he used to, and has less and less help to do so as he used to.

You speak about chances created in the past games, but you fail to mention that an uncommon amount of those chances are being created by Messi himself. He is both the main creator and main executioner on the team. The burden on him on this team today, is beyond clear and very large.

Messi doesn't need Xavi and Iniesta to be Messi, but what he does need is a semblance of a supporting and structure midfield to support him. He still needs partners to play with, and he either needs the creative burden on him lessened by others creating as well, or otherwise for people to realize that if he has to invest himself so heavily in creating and conducting the team, then inevitably his scoring output and scoring efficiency will take a hit.

Most of that is very much disputable tbh. He averaged 55 passes under Tito (his best ever scoring form until injury) and is averaging 56 now. The amount of touches he takes hasn't decreased. Against Ajax he had 87 touches. Almost as much as Xavi (98). Against PSG he had 78. Almost as much as Iniesta (88). Against Celta 67 touches. The midfielder with the most touches in that game was Rakitic with 71. He sees plenty of the ball.

The areas in which he sees the ball people can claim he is playing far away from goal all they want but that's a fallacy just because Suarez and Neymar join the box more than they stay on the wing (some exceptions in recent games where Messi was moved to the wing when Suarez joined, until Suarez learns how to move on the right I suppose) and because his passing is now more noteworthy than other parts of his game. He has come deep and played one-twos with Xavi and Iniesta in midfield, even Busquets, all the time. When he assisted Alexis in the Bernabeu in 11/12 he picked the ball up from Pique. When his assist was called off for offside in the Copa final in 10/11 he picked the ball up like this:

When he assisted Iniesta in the Supercopa he picked the ball up from here:

Why is this suddenly such news? Here is another example of where Messi received his passes under Tito. Against Espanyol:

Barely anything in and around the box, a lot in midfield. If people say he's playing much more away from goal nowadays they are seeing him playing around the center circle and his own half most of the time?

He is also not creating that much more than in the past. Nerman is simply unusually productive infront of goal for a Barca LW.

The only part I can really agree with is that his passing partners have declined but that still doesn't explain his finishing as he never really relied on getting assisted anyway.

 

[Sumlit]

Damn, you really hate twitter dont you?

Join the club. Most of the popular users there are egomaniacs whose pride seems to have been inflated by meaningless retweets and favorites from the hive minds. Also, really what kind of analysis can actually be completed in 280-420 characters? The medium necessitates making tenuous assumptions and contrived relationships between cause and effect, while neglecting the incredible randomness that is prevalent in most cases. Everything has to be related! There are no possibilities for anomalies or chance! Or of effects that reside outside the public knowledge domain!.

That guy Lucas Resende is the absolute worst, followed by Rafael Hernandez. But even Hernandez falls woefully short of the sheer arrogance and disdainful superiority that Lucas Resende exhibits on twitter. That dude cannot go one day without insulting and belittling someone on twitter.

Rafael Hernandez is just whinny.

 

[footyfan]

That guy Lucas Resende is the absolute worst, followed by Rafael Hernandez. But even Hernandez falls woefully short of the sheer arrogance and disdainful superiority that Lucas Resende exhibits on twitter. That dude cannot go one day without insulting and belittling someone on twitter.

Rafael Hernandez is just whinny.

I don't know much about those guys. One thing I've noticed is that allas was a gigantic fucktard when Barca were on top but seems to have calmed down now that they're not doing so well.

 

[Sumlit]

Most of that is very much disputable tbh. He averaged 55 passes under Tito (his best ever scoring form until injury) and is averaging 56 now. The amount of touches he takes hasn't decreased. Against Ajax he had 87 touches. Almost as much as Xavi (98). Against PSG he had 78. Almost as much as Iniesta (88). Against Celta 67 touches. The midfielder with the most touches in that game was Rakitic with 71. He sees plenty of the ball.

The areas in which he sees the ball people can claim he is playing far away from goal all they want but that's a fallacy just because Suarez and Neymar join the box more than they stay on the wing (some exceptions in recent games where Messi was moved to the wing when Suarez joined, until Suarez learns how to move on the right I suppose) and because his passing is now more noteworthy than other parts of his game. He has come deep and played one-twos with Xavi and Iniesta in midfield, even Busquets, all the time. When he assisted Alexis in the Bernabeu in 11/12 he picked the ball up from Pique. When his assist was called off for offside in the Copa final in 10/11 he picked the ball up like this:

When he assisted Iniesta in the Supercopa he picked the ball up from here:

Why is this suddenly such news? Here is another example of where Messi received his passes under Tito. Against Espanyol:

Barely anything in and around the box, a lot in midfield. If people say he's playing much more away from goal nowadays they are seeing him playing around the center circle and his own half most of the time?

He is also not creating that much more than in the past. Nerman is simply unusually productive infront of goal for a Barca LW.

The only part I can really agree with is that his passing partners have declined but that still doesn't explain his finishing as he never really relied on getting assisted anyway.

You keep posting those passes received graphics but the fact of the matter is those came from a total different system than the one being played right now. Under Guardiola/Tito Messi was playing false 9 with wide wingers, so that general location being shown of Messi receiving balls in the middle, that's actually Messi as the furthest central player on the pitch with midfield support behind him to lay off, in complete contrast to now where he receiving balls with other players further ahead and very little support in the midfield around him. It might seem like the same locations but the team structure changes despite the field remaining the same.

Your gifs are also showing slight transition instances, not actual build up. In both the defense is high off the pitch still and Barca's player are still mostly on their half of the field. It is not like we're seeing now where Messi is dropping deeper to assist the actual buildup because otherwise the buildup leads nowhere.

Example, first goal vs Almeria. Suarez assist to Neymar from a Messi pass. Look how far in the midfield Messi is and how much he had to run to get into the box after passing the ball to Suarez.

Same with the second Suarez assist and Alba goal. Messi begins the move in midfield and look how far he has to run to get in the box.

 

[Ursegor]

I don't know much about those guys. One thing I've noticed is that allas was a gigantic fucktard when Barca were on top but seems to have calmed down now that they're not doing so well.

He's still the ultimate hipster though. Why the feck "anti GIF and Vine"? Like ... why?

He should be unbanned tbh. For old time's sake. And because he was on the anti-Cesc waggon since day 1.

 

[Flavia]

I don't know much about those guys. One thing I've noticed is that allas was a gigantic fucktard when Barca were on top but seems to have calmed down now that they're not doing so well.

Like everywhere, there are good and bad people to follow. migeru, also euleri and some others are good to read.

 

[DonAK]

I don't know much about those guys. One thing I've noticed is that allas was a gigantic fucktard when Barca were on top but seems to have calmed down now that they're not doing so well.

That guy has blocked me for god knows what reason and the funny thing is that I've never had a convo with him or one which involved him.

 

[Onyi]

Not really. He's doing more, having to make more decisions. He's not there to primarily finish anymore. He's farther from the goal, with a different role. This is obviously affecting his finishing as well. I think his finishing would improve if he was back to playing a bit closer to goal, like he did vs Ajax.

And we don't know exactly how the injuries he suffered and then being rushed back in 2013 have hurt his fitness/stamina.

Need to keep those injuries in mind when we're thinking "but he did the same under Guardiola..."

 

[footyfan]

Like everywhere, there are good and bad people to follow. migeru, also euleri and some others are good to read.

I can never understand what euleri is saying. He's trying to respect the character limit, so he just ends up speaking twittish.

migeru is OK and nice to follow for random videos and news. I try to ignore his post-match analyses though because too often he tries to look for changes in approach when there just doesn't seem to be any.