10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[Darko]

He was incredibly poor, weird how much he loves Argentina but then shows no passion in a game like this. And he obviously has some kind of mental problem playing for Argentina, he scored just one goal from a penalty ffs. It doesn't help he has a shit coach and some poor players in the NT.

 

[DonAndres]

To be fair, he COULD do more than he did today. It was not a great performance from him, and we should expect more from him in such an important match. Yeah, the tactics and the play of the other Argentines might prevent him from having an absolutely dominant display, but there's something between that and his display today. Just because the rest of the team doesn't play well doesn't mean that Messi gets a completely free pass for not really performing well himself.

No. Flat out disagree to the 100th degree. I would say this about some matches in 13/14 where Messi himself clearly underwhelmed (CL quarters, CDR final, home Clasico) but not about today. Today he was completely failed by his team.

There is something dead wrong when Argentina players look to pass the ball more to fucking Rojo than to Messi. There is something even more dead wrong when Argentina players are looking to lob the ball to Chile defenders more than Messi (under little pressure as well). There's something wrong when players are incapable of completing more than 3 passes in a sequence to get the ball into good forward positions or Romero decides to chill for about 45 seconds so that Chile can regroup and reshape themselves defensively before he punts/passes/throws the ball. Despite all that he managed some great dribbles and created some clear chances.

Messi had 0 platform to perform well today. Those spells where he didn't touch the ball in the 2nd half (each about 10-15 mins at a time) were spells where Argentina were completely pinned back and decided to hand the ball continuously to Rojo for a solution if not clearing it blindly. It was utterly shocking how little service he got even though he was playing as a goddamn midfielder (fairly sure he got around 1 to 2 touches in the box at most in the entire fucking 120 minutes of play).

 

[Sumlit]

I agree. But to be fair, he did actually have more touches of the ball than any Argentine attacking player. And by a significant margin. Furthermore, you're saying that Messi should be force fed the ball, but people also criticize Argentina for constantly just passing to Messi and hoping he creates some magic.

I suppose there's a happy medium between those two. Make play always run through him, but have other players play off of him, rather than statically watch him do his thing. But I guess that's easier said than done, especially in the NT context when players aren't entirely used to playing off of each other.

Messi makes others play. Getting the ball to him means getting the ball to others as well. There's also a difference between forcing the ball to him in the final third instead of looking for your shot or for another better positioned player, and in giving him the ball in the center circle so he can hold it, distribute it, and create. The latter should be done as much as possible, specially in an Argentine team that is so freaking starved of creativity, creation and just plain football IQ.

Bypassing him like he was repeatedly in today's game was quite inexcusable. It is completely a failure in coaching.

 

[DonAK]

[tw]617469014550425600[/tw]

 

[DonAndres]

Just found the stats:

Messi had 2 touches in the box today and 1 touch at the edge of the box, over 120 minutes of play. Sanchez on the other hand had 14 touches in the box and 4 touches at the edges of the box for Chile. Even in Argentina's 6-1 domination of Paraguay, Messi was only afforded 7 touches in the box and 2 at the edge.

It's pretty damn clear why he hasn't been scoring in this tournament when literally none of the play goes in his favor. Argentina's tactics are all one giant "fuck you" from Tata to Messi as he gets no attacking service in the box (the greatest fucking goalscorer in history) along with the bare minimum service in good midfield positions (or none at all today). Fuck them all.

 

[NotInHere]

Well I wanted him to put a godly performance and he didn't, sadly the general conscious that people and specially Argentinians will have of him and the national team is that they were underachievers taking into account the great players they had, now the reason you have to explain that is up to you.

Even as a big fan of his, I cannot be blind enough to say he plays with the same passion as he goes with Barcelona for Argentina, I'm aware his teammates don't help either but I just don't see fire in his eyes like in Barca..

 

[sickstar]

I didn't watch the game entirely, but what a shame.. It's just luck not with Arg.

What i am not surprised of is that Chili has actually manage to out control Argentina in ball possession. Their defenders made great interceptions during the match (so does Argentina) but what really matters is that the midfielders pass more fluidly than Argentina.

Chili really made it hard for Messi. They did all they can to hold him, and by any way (that kick in the stomach, duh). Maybe that's why his team mates choose the other way. Ref got influenced by Chili status as the home team. A couple of times Chili players were actually doing some Hollywood top acts and ref decided to choose what cheers the audience (or avoiding him getting a hard time afterwards, you could choose either one).

 

[DonAK]

The fire in his eyes with Barca is probably because his team mates are world class while with Argentina the most you see is frustration because of piss poor tactics and incompetent and low-IQ team mates.

 

[Icarium]

I don't think changing the coach is just enough. National teams rarely have any rhythm and time and time again we have seen that messi doesn't perform at his best without that. Possession is not enough, he needs to get the ball in better places and players should make effective runs to help him. Don't just give him the ball and ask him to do some magic. He doesn't train with his international teammates daily. Their chemistry is clearly lacking. One of the reasons why Germany and Spain played that good recently is most of the players are used to same philosophy. Bayern is the backbone of Germany and barca is for Spain. What is the identity of Argentina? They are lucky to reach finals the way I see it. Messi can perform in any team but that team needs to have some identity. He is not your average physical player who could just battle around for the ball and run like a headless chicken. I have never seen maradona and Pele play... But I would like to know if those teams were this clueless especially maradona team. Any team becomes shite when you remove Pele or marodona type of player from your team. No one will argue that but what I want to know is the team working for them or just like this Argentina everyone doing their own stupid thing without any idea of what they are doing? When I see barca I know the team is build around messi, I just don't feel the same with Argentina.

 

[DonAK]

Aguero - Can't link up with anyone even if his life depended on it, and injury prone

Higuain - Can link up with others, but also manages to choke whenever it matters

Tevez - The player of the people. Yet always underachieved and got a disastrous record with the NT

Di Maria - Such a World Class player that his entire career has been marred with inconsistency and a display of pathetic decision making

Lavezzi - He can run and he can run a lot which is useful sometimes, but that's where it ends

Pastore - I've personally always rated and liked him since his Palermo, but he's too selfish a lot of times. Would rather go on his solo raids like he's the reincarnation of Maradona and Pele in one rather than play a simple pass. Also suspect decision making

Banega - Got so much talent, but is as dumb as a brick. His career is an example of that

You can fill in the rest.

I don't think changing the coach is just enough. National teams rarely have any rhythm and time and time again we have seen that messi doesn't perform at his best without that. Possession is not enough, he needs to get the ball in better places and players should make effective runs to help him. Don't just give him the ball and ask him to do some magic. He doesn't train with his international teammates daily. Their chemistry is clearly lacking. One of the reasons why Germany and Spain played that good recently is most of the players are used to same philosophy. Bayern is the backbone of Germany and barca is for Spain. What is the identity of Argentina? They are lucky to reach finals the way I see it. Messi can perform in any team but that team needs to have some identity. He is not your average physical player who could just battle around for the ball and run like a headless chicken. I have never seen maradona and Pele play... But I would like to know if those teams were this clueless especially maradona team. Any team becomes shite when you remove Pele or marodona type of player from your team. No one will argue that but what I want to know is the team working for them or just like this Argentina everyone doing their own stupid thing without any idea of what they are doing? When I see barca I know the team is build around messi, I just don't feel the same with Argentina.

In the WC Qualifiers under Sabella, they were playing really well. Then came the WC where majority of the team were out of form and in a bad physical shape, including Messi who came off a year with another hamstring injury + Tata's BBQs. They didn't play well in the WC, but they did better than this team which just looks all over the place.

Argentina need to rebuild and they need to start right now and that should start with a change of coach. Get rid of Tata, bring in Sampaoli. Do whatever it takes to get him remove all the passengers in the team. The focus should be on the 2018 WC and solely on that.

In the 2010 WC they had Bielsla who had a project, Sampaoli has build on that and perfected it. Chile were impressive in 2010, but now they're on another level.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

Did not perform well today. There are several reasons for it and his surroundings play a huge part of course but Messi should be intelligent enough to change some things on his own in such a game to get more involved.
An example: I mean there was no possibility for him to dribble in midfield because he was fouled all the damn time without the opposition getting (deserving) yellows. But why did he continue to ask to get the ball played to his feet all the time? Change it up a bit, make some deep runs yourself, ask for through balls or create space with it. Imo he made himself too one dimensional in the game.

Messi does not have the perfect conditions at Argentina to play his best game. But he should never ever have a game where he is so limited. Chile was the better team and Argentina struggled but we can not blame everyone except Messi because we root for him and do not care for the rest of the team.

Edit: I really wanted Messi to win this fucking Copa too btw.

 

[Sumlit]

Did not perform well today. There are several reasons for it and his surroundings play a huge part of course but Messi should be intelligent enough to change some things on his own in such a game to get more involved.
An example: I mean there was no possibility for him to dribble in midfield because he was fouled all the damn time without the opposition getting (deserving) yellows. But why did he continue to ask to get the ball played to his feet all the time? Change it up a bit, make some deep runs yourself, ask for through balls or create space with it. Imo he made himself too one dimensional in the game.

Messi does not have the perfect conditions at Argentina to play his best game. But he should never ever have a game where he is so limited. Chile was the better team and Argentina struggled but we can not blame everyone except Messi because we root for him and do not care for the rest of the team.

Edit: I really wanted Messi to win this fucking Copa too btw.

BB this is a lot easier said than done. He was barely getting service standing open in the middle circle, what makes you think he would have gotten more making runs? More movement and deep runs without someone like him to pick them out would have just meant wasted energy.

He did the simplest thing he could do and what he always does when he's not getting service up front, for Barca too, he dropped deeper to the middle circle and asked for the ball to initiate. Simple matter of fact was he just was being bypassed for hoofballs, dribble dribbles and wing passes.

 

[Blaugrana Bull]

I am not saying I got it all figured out what Messi should do in a match where the game is running past by him. But when your usual moves do not work why not try to change it up at least a bit? Switch to the left a couple of minutes or make deep runs to see if you can drag defenders with you etc. Avoid the situations he was in numerous times in the crowded center of the pitch. Messi receives ball --> instant hacking --> either loses ball in dangerous position or gets fouled but opponent gets no yellow --> they continue to foul him all match.
And considering "wasting energy". This was a fucking final. You go all out no matter what.

 

[Sumlit]

Fruitless running without aim serves no purpose, final or not. Argentina were completely and totally tactically nullified on the field. They would not string 3 passes together to get out from their own half as they were pinned back repeatedly. Aguero made runs for instance, and was only met with hoof balls that he is ill equipped to handle and was unsurprisingly dispossessed. I don't think there was much more Messi could have done when the team was either unwilling or unable to get him the ball, even when he dropped deep and was open several times in the middle.

All Di Maria did was dribble into traffic and lose the ball until he got injured. The play in which he got injured perfectly illustrated the stupidity with which he played. Pastore was very similar with his mindless dribbles to the sidelines only to get trapped and dispossessed. He was more willing to connect, but then was terrible in the execution. Mascherano and Biglia simply lack the skills.

The entire tournament Messi has needed to drop deep to get the ball because Argentina simply is unable to advance the ball with possession with any manner of consistency without him. This final only saw an opponent that with its pressing and aggressive defense made it even harder and taxed even more the little connection that already was hanging by the smallest of threads.

This Argentina team looked like a tactical disaster.

 

[jamarcus]

Too many excuses. Messi barely ran and he was static all match. All he did was wait to receive the ball and when he did, he either made sideways passes or was fouled. Only a couple of times did he show his true skill on the pitch and those were merely moments in an otherwise dreadful performance.