10 - Lionel Messi - v4

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Hardy

Senior Member
people says the problem is stamina, fast, lack, role play but for me is also mentality, attitude, approach to the game. Look at him vs Atletico, City or Bayern last year, then watch him yesterday or in others big games, it's evident the difference, i mean from the start of the game.
 

Butaan4barca

New member
It is very important for Messi to play RW for as much as possible. It stretches defences, and it doesn't allow teams to crowd the midfield. Once Messi is no longer a threat in the right, he can be blocked by more players (both the DM and RCM, the LB and one of the CBs). He has to beat several opponents, that can block him from more directions. They can also isolate him out of the game because of his rather poor workrate off the ball and because it is very hard to pick him up with passes when he is guarded by many players. Neither Rakitic, nor Arda seem to have the confidence of playing a through ball when the marking is tight on the receiver. They prefer the safer option each time. You actually need a Xavi type of player, with an ultra-safe pass and a brilliant through ball, and most importantly, a supreme confidence in his skills, for us to constantly find Messi with passes in the middle, especially in a more advanced (therefor considered dangerous) position. His all-around poor game without the ball (he doesn't create space for himself, he rather exploits space being created by other players, that's why he comes in the middle from the wing, he sees a bit of space he can use) makes him easy to mark in that area. In the right though, he has that space. You can't put 2-3 players on the right wing, because that would mean acres of space in the middle. RW and LW are position you defend when danger happens in that area, they are not considered key zones. They became key zones when you have Neymar and Messi creating havoc there. We need to make our opponent defend the whole width of the pitch. An experience team like Madrid exposed Lucho's tactic. Marcelo especially saw that Messi didn't really intersect with him and became extremely aggresive going forward, and also went in the center more, allowing Pepe and Ramos to effectively take care of Suarez.

marcelo.jpg


This picture is infuriating. There is no danger whatsoever comming from our right when we play like that. There is Alves there, who could bomb forward and attack space left by Marcelo, who does what a great player should do and goes to help his teammates in the center when he sees no one is attacking his zone. Alves could do that, but then there's this problem called Ronaldo. He took a risk in this instance and almost scored a golazo.

If we had Messi on the right like we were supposed to, Marcelo would've been out from the center. And maybe Suarez wouldn't have been made a kebab between Ramos and Pepe (picture above).

I think you are missing a key point i have tried to highlight. If messi is playing deep in mid, and midfielder are covering him. That creates ample of space for OTHERs to exploit.
So i am not sure a player has to play in a particular position 50 odd matches in a season, once a while he can adjust roles to create element of surprise. Plus a team can have several setups playing models using the same 11 within a single match too.
 

bismp

Well-known member
people says the problem is stamina, fast, lack, role play but for me is also mentality, attitude, approach to the game. Look at him vs Atletico, City or Bayern last year, then watch him yesterday or in others big games, it's evident the difference, i mean from the start of the game.
Actually i thought he was quite motivated at the beggining of the game.

Here's how i see it:
For whatever reasons,be it stamina or detioration of pace etc,he had a bad game,with a (very) few glimpses of greatness.However,let's please stop the "He is saving himself for X game" excuse.
 

gasgas

Senior Member
I think you are missing a key point i have tried to highlight. If messi is playing deep in mid, and midfielder are covering him. That creates ample of space for OTHERs to exploit.
So i am not sure a player has to play in a particular position 50 odd matches in a season, once a while he can adjust roles to create element of surprise. Plus a team can have several setups playing models using the same 11 within a single match too.

Yeah and we got our surprise 3-1 at home in the memory of cruyff
 

FC B

Senior Member
people says the problem is stamina, fast, lack, role play but for me is also mentality, attitude, approach to the game. Look at him vs Atletico, City or Bayern last year, then watch him yesterday or in others big games, it's evident the difference, i mean from the start of the game.

Absolutely.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
I agree serghei but that's lucho's fault.
He should understand what's happening and tell them to revert to their regular positions. Do you remember how pep changed his 3 defenders to 4 in just the first 20mins in barca-bayern last season? Lucho never does major tactical changes like this, never.
Although I don't rate lucho at all considering his tactical knowledge, we need a better coach, last year it was all msn.

Peps made changes in that game and they still got beat 3-0. Pep has continually shown for the past few years a stubborn streak and not been willing to change his teams style of play which has cost him.

You cant have it both ways and it is all MSN when Barca win and Luchos fault when they lose.

Why did none of MSN step up yesterday if it is all on them?
 

Total-Football

Senior Member
It is very important for Messi to play RW for as much as possible. It stretches defences, and it doesn't allow teams to crowd the midfield. Once Messi is no longer a threat in the right, he can be blocked by more players (both the DM and RCM, the LB and one of the CBs). He has to beat several opponents, that can block him from more directions. They can also isolate him out of the game because of his rather poor workrate off the ball and because it is very hard to pick him up with passes when he is guarded by many players. Neither Rakitic, nor Arda seem to have the confidence of playing a through ball when the marking is tight on the receiver. They prefer the safer option each time. You actually need a Xavi type of player, with an ultra-safe pass and a brilliant through ball, and most importantly, a supreme confidence in his skills, for us to constantly find Messi with passes in the middle, especially in a more advanced (therefor considered dangerous) position. His all-around poor game without the ball (he doesn't create space for himself, he rather exploits space being created by other players, that's why he comes in the middle from the wing, he sees a bit of space he can use) makes him easy to mark in that area. In the right though, he has that space. You can't put 2-3 players on the right wing, because that would mean acres of space in the middle. RW and LW are position you defend when danger happens in that area, they are not considered key zones. They became key zones when you have Neymar and Messi creating havoc there. We need to make our opponent defend the whole width of the pitch. An experience team like Madrid exposed Lucho's tactic. Marcelo especially saw that Messi didn't really intersect with him and became extremely aggresive going forward, and also went in the center more, allowing Pepe and Ramos to effectively take care of Suarez.

marcelo.jpg


This picture is infuriating. There is no danger whatsoever comming from our right when we play like that. There is Alves there, who could bomb forward and attack space left by Marcelo, who does what a great player should do and goes to help his teammates in the center when he sees no one is attacking his zone. Alves could do that, but then there's this problem called Ronaldo. He took a risk in this instance and almost scored a golazo.

If we had Messi on the right like we were supposed to, Marcelo would've been out from the center. And maybe Suarez wouldn't have been made a kebab between Ramos and Pepe (picture above).

that's pretty much the whole idea of 4-3-3 that was conceived by cruyf .. stretching as much as possible when you have the ball and squeeze (making the pitch look smaller ) when you dont have the ball .. but the problem again an again is the stamina .. whenever Robben for ( example ) holds the ball from the right side he runs at defenders creating havoc .. messi on the other hand knows he cant run at defenders everytime like a regular Rw would do .. he cant run that much .. so he decides to move to the midfield to deliver his killer passes .. there is a bright side to this .. he's pretty dangerous when in the middle of the pitch .. but the dark side is that the right wing is left for dead .. you got a 33 years old Alves by himself doing nothing instead of collaborating with a RW . also another negative point is that the middle of the pitch is crowded compared to the Wing .. such a shame that the best dribbler in the world doesnt have the Stamina to dribble constantly .. really
 
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Vlom

Previously known as Mehssi
Do you guys think it was his own doing going into the center or was it a Lucho instruction ?
 

kollegah

Senior Member
Awful game, really had high hopes after that amazing performance against Bolivia.

thats not how it works
the quality of players (bolivia, paraguay etc-) is not an benchmark.
Thats why I never rated this international and go crazy like 90% of this forum if messi has 1 run (no end product) on a potatefield in south america
 
Do you guys think it was his own doing going into the center or was it a Lucho instruction ?

that's the worthy question.

Honestly i don't think there are any solid hints one way or the other. What we know is Lucho does discuss tactics with an open mind especially with the dictator, so it was most likely consensual.
They may not have foreseen Casemiro starting, too. (?)
 

serghei

Senior Member
I don't think Messi plays where he wants and does what he wants on the pitch. That would be unacceptable imo. You play where the manager asks you to play. Team comes first.
 
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Kerrybai

New member
thats not how it works
the quality of players (bolivia, paraguay etc-) is not an benchmark.
Thats why I never rated this international and go crazy like 90% of this forum if messi has 1 run (no end product) on a potatefield in south america

1 run ? He was terrific in that game and ran his socks off. The benchmark isn't the same but he was playing with a lot of desire.
 
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