10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[sickstar]

Many come out of nowhere when barca lost or draw and blame messi. I come out to defend him. If I don't, who else? lol.

He has his own way. He has stated it once. I'm not buying the Messi dont run because he want it easy. He has been walking even since 2011. We know what happen that season and last year.

Whatever it is, he still scored plenty a season even in his injury prone season and contribute in the cups.

He doesn't play well yesterday... So does others, maybe except Rakitic and Pique.

 

[barcafan161]

he was playing slow motion but he looked tired

 

[BBZ8800]

Yes, playing midfield was indeed a mistake - it was super-crowded and it failed time after time. Messi should have switched to RW and than try to get in behind, that would also stretch out RM leaving more space in the middle for Suarez or even an Iniesta run - but we just looked a little bit clueless and out of ideas when they shut us down.

And

Putting him in the middle also removed one of our most deadly attacks. When he's on the right, defenders heads naturally turn to him permitting Neymar or Alba to quickly run in behind, prompting him to do that beautiful right to left crossed pass that he perfected last season. From the middle he still managed to do some initiating lobbed passes, but they were generally too telegraphed and easy to read.

Also, generally speaking, a lot of our attacks start with Messi getting the ball somewhere on the right side, and then the attacking movement of the team sort of naturally flows from right to left. It has become part of the attacking rhythm and pattern that makes MSN so effective. Placing him in the middle did confuse his teammates a bit, and it was especially evident with Suarez. Many times their positioning got awkward and their movements was not in sync.

I am seriously pissed off with that play-through-the-middle-thing.
I was the one of the first users here who started to whine during Tata's (and Tito's) matches=that we should leave the f***ing Tiki-Taka (glory days) and move on.
Yes, Tiki-Taka was awesome and it created a current Barca and this era.
But football goes in cycles and things/teams/opponents evolve and change over time.

After Pep, there was one very simple and clear pattern in our style of play:
1. when we play against midtable teams, we can win with playing through the middle or with any other style
-- so, against crappy teams, every style is usually good enough if we have enough of stamina, focus and motivation
2. against best teams in Europe, we have failed or looked clueless in 4 out 5 matches, whenever we played through the middle (Bayern with Tito, even though majority of people will blame ONLY injuries for that loss, then Atletico several times under Tata, and then a few matches under Lucho when he goes into a retard-Tiki Taka-play through the middle-mode).
Ok, before someone jumps and say that this was not Tiki-Taka, I know.
But my point is: whenever we try to build majority of actions from the middle or through the middle (usually with Messi in the middle), we are crap and sterile in 4 out of 5 matches.

I was trying to figure out since yesterday what is the reason why Lucho switched to this retarded system, and voila, I checked Argentina:Bolivia match:

(Look at where Messi plays)

Messi played on this stupid position in the middle.
But here are 2 problems:
1. Messi probably LOVES to play in the middle, since he is "involved" more
-- but what he probably fails to understand is:
= that is Argentina, a team with less good creators than Barca. And a team like Argentina will profit more with Messi in the middle than with Messi on a RW.
= further, it works against Bolivia and similar "midtable/average" teams.
As I have written above, Messi in the middle (lol, or even Masch in the middle) will work against 90% of average teams due to our insane individual quality.
But when we face a well-organized team, then we are hitting a wall every single time.
2. the 2nd problem is Lucho. I am not sure whether he plays Messi in the middle because Messi asked for that.
Or because Lucho "was fooled" by Messi's display against an average Bolivia and Lucho got the idea to actually try to play Messi in the middle also in Barca, since it worked "perfectly" against Bolivia

I am now seriously afraid that this wasn't just a one-time-experiment with a this system.
There are some concerns that either Messi or Lucho (or both of them) actually think that this is an awesome idea and an awesome plan B for some matches

So, let's see what will happen against Atletico.
If Lucho will continue with this idiotic idea, we are screwed, people.

We will win La liga, no worries.
But our only chance in a CL is if we will play our goat-system with Messi on a RW.
A system against which our opponents haven't yet find a solution.
So, no reason to change an extremely successful (new) system for a system from 5 years ago, which is neutralized since then and which failed numerous times since then.

 

[Topolino]

BBZ take it easy mate. It's all correct and it's good to vent your frustration on the keyboard but you've got to relax. I know it hurts.

 

[Butaan4barca]

i don't think playing him in the mid and much deeper was a bad idea at all, and i think the tactics were right even if we have lost the match. Its something imminent in future, may be in 2-3 years as messi has all characteristics for that role. The only two improvement areas to get that strategy right next time is getting a real goal threat from right side (better performance from alvez, and adra starting instead of rakitic) and secondly more influential messi.

On any other day he would take on defenders and dribble more. And i seriously think, with the points difference we have and midweek fixture with athletico did played a part here.

 

[khaled_a_d]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] ,I am not sure why mentioning both Tito & Tata at same sentence .Under Tito Messi was on his way to have his greatest ever season as a football player if it wasn't for injury & health concerns of both.
And Messi will return to the middle sooner or later ,this has nothing to do with tiki-taka btw .playing wide need more speed that he will lack by age .
I agree that playing him at the middle almost exclusively tonight was wrong decision .but let's not make one game mistake into something bigger
And Messi wasn't really a true RW in Lucho system ,he was always free to move to the middle .he always had the chance to switch places with Suarez . It was even done for almost the 2nd half of the 2nd classico last season . He is a playmaker and scorer and that will always requires him to move inside a lot to play to his full potential .
Again ,playing him totally as AM/SS today was mistake .but let's not overreact

 

[raskolnikov]

I thunk he went to the midfield to help control it so Rakitic can cover Marcelo. Otherwise you would get beaten in midfield with Marcelo and Ronaldo attacking Alves since Messi wont track back.
I hope he gets some rest so he has the stamina to attack from the right.

 

[BBZ8800]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] ,I am not sure why mentioning both Tito & Tata at same sentence .Under Tito Messi was on his way to have his greatest ever season as a football player if it wasn't for injury & health concerns of both.

Best individual stats and team's results are different things.

A random example and random numbers, just an example (my estimation):
-- if Messi plays on a RW, he will touch the ball, let's say 20 times per match and he will have only 3 dribbles per match
-- if Messi plays in the middle (Amc, Mc, false 9), he will touch the ball, let's say 40 times per match and have 5 insane solo-dribbling actions through 3-4 opponents

This is not a perfect analogy, but CR7 can have 50 goals in one season (due to how a team plays for him), but his team may fail to win any trophy.
Let's say that Bale will score 10 goals and Benzema 20 goals in that system. (So, CR7 50, Benz 20, Bale 10 goals)
While in a parallel universe, Real Mardid's formation and tactics may be slightly different, and CR7 will on individual level score only 30 goals, but his team will be balanced differently, and some other players (and the whole team) will get more chances/shots in that system, and Real's team will have:
-- CR7 30 goals
-- Bale 30 goals
-- Benzema 30 goals
-- a random Amc 20 goals

I know that you already know this, but individual stats and team's results/trophies aren't necessarily that much related and could be misleading.
I am not saying that Messi was bad or anything in that season, but back then, our whole team was extremely Messi-dependant and everything revolved too much around him.
And since our tactics was outdated and easily neutralized back then, that system was good for Messi's numbers, but bad for Barca's trophies.

So, I don't know if this will make too much sense, but how I see it is:
1. if Messi is in the middle, his individual stats regarding number of touches, passes, successful dribbles and probably even a number of goals and assists
= will be higher
-- but a whole team will struggle on larger samples and numbers from Neymar and Suarez will get lower
2. if Messi is on a RW, his individual stats and "involvement" in matches may be little lower
-- but the whole team will be balanced differently and a team in general will create much more chances (so, NOT him, but the whole team and other attackers Neymar, Suarez will get more shooting attempts in that formation) and Barca as a team will win more matches, score more goals, win more trophies on larger samples

Messi probably enjoys playing in the middle.
And for Argentina, he is good there since they lack quality.
In Barca, a whole team will be balanced better when he is on a RW, even though a number of his touches, dribbles and goals will slightly suffer.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Even last season when Messi did play as a RW it was only a starting point, he probably spent half the time playing in the middle of the pitch.

And this isn't the first time Messi played in the middle this season, Enrique at times has experimented with a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-2-1-3 with Messi playing in the middle this season though never in big games.
You also have to remember his natural position is that of a Nr10 or a second forward playing behind a classic nr 9.

 

[khaled_a_d]

I am not saying that Messi was bad or anything in that season, but back then, our whole team was extremely Messi-dependant and everything revolved too much around him.
And since our tactics was outdated and easily neutralized back then, that system was good for Messi's numbers, but bad for Barca's trophies.

So, I don't know if this will make too much sense, but how I see it is:
1. if Messi is in the middle, his individual stats regarding number of touches, passes, successful dribbles and probably even a number of goals and assists
= will be higher
-- but a whole team will struggle on larger samples and numbers from Neymar and Suarez will get lower
2. if Messi is on a RW, his individual stats and "involvement" in matches may be little lower
-- but the whole team will be balanced differently and a team in general will create much more chances (so, NOT him, but the whole team and other attackers Neymar, Suarez will get more shooting attempts in that formation) and Barca as a team will win more matches, score more goals, win more trophies on larger samples

Messi probably enjoys playing in the middle.
And for Argentina, he is good there since they lack quality.
In Barca, a whole team will be balanced better when he is on a RW, even though a number of his touches, dribbles and goals will slightly suffer.

That team wasn't that Messi dependant ,May be scoring wise they were .but it was still a team that was totally controlled by Xavi-Iniesta presence . We were doing just fine at the 1st half of the season then injuries hit the team hard ,Tito relapse and we stopped rotating players .at the 2nd half of the season we have seen what age has done to player like Xavi .how fatigue was affecting us .their was simply hundreds of factors out there and non of them had nothing to do with Messi in the middle .
As you said ,football runs in cycles ,until Tito season Messi at the middle was a successful cycle .then at Tata season it showed it needed change .Lucho was the one who have done that change and he had done it in perfect time
But he has done it understanding the need of the current"cycle" ,we don't need a Rijkaard positioning for Messi at the RW ,back then he was R10 sidekick but now he is the best player in the history .Messi was given a tactical freedom & a tactical ability to switch places
This tactical freedom was given to Neymar too when Messi was injured btw b/c he was the team best player .because at the end of the day every team loves the ball to touch its best player the most .the difference "to make player success related to team success" it to have alternatives and not to force things
Again ,I am not saying we should just put Messi again as false 9 ,but we shouldn't act like yesterday tactical mistake demolishes the success of Lucho way in using him "freely" on the RW .and the fact that Messi is doing gr8 as RW under Lucho doesn't mean he will never be playing in it in the future ,because it will have to happen just like moving back to RW had to happen

 

[Mitchell1978]

"Messi should play on the wing and not be involved to much" wasn't that something Tata said once?

Don't get me wrong, for now i think Messi should start out at RW in games and then see how the game evolves, where he is needed the most to determine where to go, but you would want your best player to touch the ball as much as possible.

 

[Butaan4barca]

Yes true, No body sticks to a particular vertical line, A heat map on usual messi playing at wings shows him starting from right (keeps defense strectch to create spaces) and then free to move where ever he wants to create opportunities.

even in last night match his heat map would indicate his movements everywhere but a dense area would be deeper in the mid, which i genuinely think wasnt a bad idea to drag midfield players and defenders off the deep defense line, Creating a huge area of space between mid and last defense line. I think had suarez scored the first goal, or better implementation of the same strategy any other day , with everything else same could yield different results.

 

[serghei]

It is very important for Messi to play RW for as much as possible. It stretches defences, and it doesn't allow teams to crowd the midfield. Once Messi is no longer a threat in the right, he can be blocked by more players (both the DM and RCM, the LB and one of the CBs). He has to beat several opponents, that can block him from more directions. They can also isolate him out of the game because of his rather poor workrate off the ball and because it is very hard to pick him up with passes when he is guarded by many players. Neither Rakitic, nor Arda seem to have the confidence of playing a through ball when the marking is tight on the receiver. They prefer the safer option each time. You actually need a Xavi type of player, with an ultra-safe pass and a brilliant through ball, and most importantly, a supreme confidence in his skills, for us to constantly find Messi with passes in the middle, especially in a more advanced (therefor considered dangerous) position. His all-around poor game without the ball (he doesn't create space for himself, he rather exploits space being created by other players, that's why he comes in the middle from the wing, he sees a bit of space he can use) makes him easy to mark in that area. In the right though, he has that space. You can't put 2-3 players on the right wing, because that would mean acres of space in the middle. RW and LW are position you defend when danger happens in that area, they are not considered key zones. They became key zones when you have Neymar and Messi creating havoc there. We need to make our opponent defend the whole width of the pitch. An experience team like Madrid exposed Lucho's tactic. Marcelo especially saw that Messi didn't really intersect with him and became extremely aggresive going forward, and also went in the center more, allowing Pepe and Ramos to effectively take care of Suarez.

This picture is infuriating. There is no danger whatsoever comming from our right when we play like that. There is Alves there, who could bomb forward and attack space left by Marcelo, who does what a great player should do and goes to help his teammates in the center when he sees no one is attacking his zone. Alves could do that, but then there's this problem called Ronaldo. He took a risk in this instance and almost scored a golazo.

If we had Messi on the right like we were supposed to, Marcelo would've been out from the center. And maybe Suarez wouldn't have been made a kebab between Ramos and Pepe (picture above).

 

[6 Ballons for Messi]

I agree serghei but that's lucho's fault.
He should understand what's happening and tell them to revert to their regular positions. Do you remember how pep changed his 3 defenders to 4 in just the first 20mins in barca-bayern last season? Lucho never does major tactical changes like this, never.
Although I don't rate lucho at all considering his tactical knowledge, we need a better coach, last year it was all msn.

 

[serghei]

Nah, he makes mistakes from time to time, both with the wrong subs and the wrong tactics. But as long as he doesn't constantly repeat them, I'm fine with Lucho. He's great at certain important aspects, at least so far in his tenure at Barca. But I expect him to have reason and understand that using a smaller space to play in, against a team that defends in numbers, is a losing tactic. It's only logical. The key when playing such a team is making them defend the most space.