10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[Mitchell1978]

Why not just, you know, make tax havens ilegal? If many countries made a deal regarding this, maybe it could work. If the money is made in one country, lets say Spain, that money should stay in Spain.

Something like that would only work if you do it worldwide and all the big nations agree.
And if you do something like that countries should at the same time make governments much smaller and tax rates lower so there's less incentive to avoid taxes.

 

[Yannik]

Nope, he is not. If he signed something because his accountant said it's fine, then he's not guilty. Maybe the guys is dumb, knows shit about the law and he only knows to play football. I bet there are more than 100 million people in the world that don't even know what an offshore company is. And people with college degrees and whatnot.

Ignorance is no excuse in law. You count go there again like. "Aww gee willikers, got tricked by my accountant again!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He is to blame for what, exactly? It's not a crime to own an offshore company.

That's why there will be investigations in what this company is used for.
And No, I don't think for a second that Mega Star Enterprises Inc is about him, sitting in Panama and selling DVDs or something.
There is no prove up to this point that he is guilty of tax frauds, and that's not what the ICIJ is saying. They are simply saying that he has an offshore company in Panama, the rest is done by common sense.
And to me this smells heavily, sorry.

 

[Morten]

Something like that would only work if you do it worldwide and all the big nations agree.
And if you do something like that countries should at the same time make governments much smaller and tax rates lower so there's less incentive to avoid taxes.

Tax rates keeps getting lower, the rich still abuse tax-havens. No, they wont cooperate, the governments around the world would have to force them to.

 

[Flavia]

That's why there will be investigations in what this company is used for.
And No, I don't think for a second that Mega Star Enterprises Inc is about him, sitting in Panama and selling DVDs or something.
There is no prove up to this point that he is guilty of tax frauds, and that's not what the ICIJ is saying. They are simply saying that he has an offshore company in Panama, the rest is done by common sense.
And to me this smells heavily, sorry.

They have just stated it's an inactive company, no transactions were ever made. I doubt they would lie about something so easy to disprove.

 

[Yannik]

They have just stated it's an inactive company, no transactions were ever made. I doubt they would lie about something so easy to disprove.

Where have they stated that? And who is "they"? Messi and his father?

 

[serghei]

Ignorance is no excuse in law. You count go there again like. "Aww gee willikers, got tricked by my accountant again!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Did I say it's an excuse? No. In fact, I said that if he did make fraud without knowing that he did, he should give the money back and eventually pay a fine. But you can't go to jail if you did not intent to commit fraud.

fraud

n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right. A party who has lost something due to fraud is entitled to file a lawsuit for damages against the party acting fraudulently, and the damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

 

[Flavia]

Where have they stated that? And who is "they"? Messi and his father?

Yes, the Messi family published a statement. It was posted here in the thread, more than once.

 

[JamDav1982]

Where have they stated that? And who is "they"? Messi and his father?

You are desperate for Messi to be guilty of something and give personal opinion that it is 'smells heavily' but question people pointing to a press release.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I am with Morten, makes all tax haven countries illegal but that can't be enforced as each sovereign nation can do whatever they want, unless there is some sort of UN treaty that requires all countries to sign to forbid tax havens, but even that you will have countries that will not sign on to it.

People and corporations will think of ways to avoid pay taxes.

 

[Luftstalag14]

That's why there will be investigations in what this company is used for.
And No, I don't think for a second that Mega Star Enterprises Inc is about him, sitting in Panama and selling DVDs or something.
There is no prove up to this point that he is guilty of tax frauds, and that's not what the ICIJ is saying. They are simply saying that he has an offshore company in Panama, the rest is done by common sense.
And to me this smells heavily, sorry.

Who will conduct the investigations? The Spanish authorities? I guess they will just add one more shell company to their list, right?

This smells heavily sorry? What exactly are you saying Yannik? I must say you struck me as pretty eager to happily announce that Messi is guilty even before the details are known.

Maybe you are just having a moment of schadenfreude at our expense?

 

[Yannik]

You are desperate for Messi to be guilty of something and give personal opinion that it is 'smells heavily' but question people pointing to a press release.

I didn't see it, sorry, what's the deal? Spanish tweet and a pretty long text below that, that I didn't read as the thread has been pretty hot in the last hours. I simply asked for the source to that, how is that making me desperate of something?
I simply don't buy that whole story for a second, it's not like Denying the claims is some unpopular move, many leaked celebrities went out to tell "nahh, didn't do it". I don't see how this is really making his innocence any more likely.

Did I say it's an excuse? No. In fact, I said that if he did make fraud without knowing that he did, he should give the money back and eventually pay a fine. But you can't go to jail if you did not intent to commit fraud.

fraud

n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right. A party who has lost something due to fraud is entitled to file a lawsuit for damages against the party acting fraudulently, and the damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

The thing is that all these factors leading to a 2nd case would come into relevance in front of a court when he's trying to prove his "unawareness". He is to be held accountable for it, and repeating a crime is definitely coming with a bigger punishment than commiting it for the first time.

 

[JamDav1982]

I didn't see it, sorry, what's the deal? Spanish tweet and a pretty long text below that, that I didn't read as the thread has been pretty hot in the last hours. I simply asked for the source to that, how is that making me desperate of something?
I simply don't buy that whole story for a second, it's not like Denying the claims is some unpopular move, many leaked celebrities went out to tell "nahh, didn't do it". I don't see how this is really making his innocence any more likely.





The thing is that all these factors leading to a 2nd case would come into relevance in front of a court when he's trying to prove his "unawareness". He is to be held accountable for it, and repeating a crime is definitely coming with a bigger punishment than commiting it for the first time.

You are presuming he is guilty when know nothing about what happened.

 

[serghei]

I didn't see it, sorry, what's the deal? Spanish tweet and a pretty long text below that, that I didn't read as the thread has been pretty hot in the last hours. I simply asked for the source to that, how is that making me desperate of something?
I simply don't buy that whole story for a second, it's not like Denying the claims is some unpopular move, many leaked celebrities went out to tell "nahh, didn't do it". I don't see how this is really making his innocence any more likely.





The thing is that all these factors leading to a 2nd case would come into relevance in front of a court when he's trying to prove his "unawareness". He is to be held accountable for it, and repeating a crime is definitely coming with a bigger punishment than commiting it for the first time.

Actually, if he commited both of them while unaware, he may be negligent, but tax fraud involves the element of intent. In this case, the fraudulent intent is key in sending someone to prison.

The 2nd case might come into relevance in front of a court, it doesn't prove anything. He was never found guilty the first time, to say that he should have known better and learned from his mistake.

 

[Luftstalag14]

I didn't see it, sorry, what's the deal? Spanish tweet and a pretty long text below that, that I didn't read as the thread has been pretty hot in the last hours. I simply asked for the source to that, how is that making me desperate of something?
I simply don't buy that whole story for a second, it's not like Denying the claims is some unpopular move, many leaked celebrities went out to tell "nahh, didn't do it". I don't see how this is really making his innocence any more likely.


The thing is that all these factors leading to a 2nd case would come into relevance in front of a court when he's trying to prove his "unawareness". He is to be held accountable for it, and repeating a crime is definitely coming with a bigger punishment than commiting it for the first time.

I am lost here. What "story" do you not buy? That Messi himself was not aware of all the intricacies, legal or illegal, regarding his taxes? Or his family's statement that the newly-revealed shell company by PP has been inactive?

And what 2nd case? Why would there be a second case? If it is just ANOTHER shell company adding to the list, why would there be another lawsuit?

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=13941]Luftstalag14[/MENTION], the discussion is hypotetical. If Messi deserves to go to jail if he cheated tax without having intent to do so. One time or two times it does not matter.