10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[FinBarcelonafan]

Argentina lost balance with the introduction of Tevez and Higuain. Martino saw his midfield is being overrun (since he had 3 players not utilized at tracking back at all) and tried to fix ti with Biglia sub, but he still had midfield disadvantage since he subbed him in for Banega.

I have absolutely no idea why he subbed in BOTH Tevez and Higuain. It's as if there's pressure on him to use all forwards.

Most likely this is the case. He has too many good forwards, so he feels he needs to play them all.

 

[King Leo]

I was happy Pastore linked up well with Messi few times given the little play time they have together. This with more training can become something positive. Di Maria needs to step up his game and Higuain shouldn't be called for National duty again. He's a waste.

 

[Lomar1o]

Messi was good, but not god mode. His form does seem to take a dip for Argentina. Not as big of one as people say, but a definite dip. I have some thoughts on why that is. I think the players for Argentina don't go on as many forward runs as Barcelona players do. And they don't practice together nearly as much, so Messi is not quite so used to where they want the ball or when they will make runs. His passing game is really all about splitting open the defense by passing to a guy making a well-timed run. If players don't go on those runs that often and you are not sure exactly when they will do it, you'll end up making a lot less of those great passes. Of course, no one has much practice with their NT teammates, so logically this would affect everyone, not just Messi. But other greats players' passing games aren't reliant quite so much on perfect timing, so I think this hurts Messi more than it might hurt other players at the NT level. If his passing isn't going to make quite so much of a difference, Messi is left to try to make a difference through dribbling. But to dribble, you need space. Yes, even Messi needs space to dribble. Barcelona gets him space in two key ways. First, players make runs. This drags defenders away from Messi OR gives Messi an open teammate to pass to. Again, Argentina's players don't make those runs nearly so often, so the defenders can bunch up and take away Messi's space. Second, when defenders do bunch up like that, Messi typically tries to play one-two's with Barcelona teammates. You can get through a crowded area much more easily without the ball, so he 1-2's his way through crowds. But that takes really precise one-touch passing, the type of passing Barcelona players thrive on and practice every day. But his Argentina teammates just don't have the same skill set to do that. And without that, it becomes much harder to turn a dribbling move into a scoring or assisting opportunity. So Messi is stuck dribbling into crowds and having few defense-splitting passes open.

Basically, I think perhaps Messi's game is a little reliant on his teammates making well timed runs and having the touch to make 1-2's in crowded areas. And he doesn't get that as much for Argentina, so it's harder for him to make stuff happen. He is left dribbling into crowds, trying to make shots outside the box (i.e. outside of the crowds of defenders), and/or trying to get goals through those well-timed late run into the box he does. He can still be quite effective doing that (and I really hope that he will be in the rest of this Copa America), but it's a significant difference from what he can do at Barcelona.

what you said basically means that on a regular basis an ace player cannot shine against a good team if his teammates are average. if his teammates can't play one-twos, if his teammates do not make forward runs for him to assist them, if his teammates can't assist him when he makes those forward runs, if his teammates can't get him space, if he is marked by at least 3 players ALL THE TIME, name me one player who would do more than him in his role? so, basically if we put messi in even a worse team it will be safe to say that he sucks because he won't be able to win matches for them right? he puts even more effort in argentina games if you ask me because he really does it alone there. and south american teams are harder to play against then europian, because in south america they play like bulls, pushing, shoving, pulling, tackling, kicking, fighting, you dont get an inch of space like against Armenia for example.

 

[doublehh03]

Messi was good, but not god mode. His form does seem to take a dip for Argentina. Not as big of one as people say, but a definite dip. I have some thoughts on why that is. I think the players for Argentina don't go on as many forward runs as Barcelona players do. And they don't practice together nearly as much, so Messi is not quite so used to where they want the ball or when they will make runs. His passing game is really all about splitting open the defense by passing to a guy making a well-timed run. If players don't go on those runs that often and you are not sure exactly when they will do it, you'll end up making a lot less of those great passes. Of course, no one has much practice with their NT teammates, so logically this would affect everyone, not just Messi. But other greats players' passing games aren't reliant quite so much on perfect timing, so I think this hurts Messi more than it might hurt other players at the NT level. If his passing isn't going to make quite so much of a difference, Messi is left to try to make a difference through dribbling. But to dribble, you need space. Yes, even Messi needs space to dribble. Barcelona gets him space in two key ways. First, players make runs. This drags defenders away from Messi OR gives Messi an open teammate to pass to. Again, Argentina's players don't make those runs nearly so often, so the defenders can bunch up and take away Messi's space. Second, when defenders do bunch up like that, Messi typically tries to play one-two's with Barcelona teammates. You can get through a crowded area much more easily without the ball, so he 1-2's his way through crowds. But that takes really precise one-touch passing, the type of passing Barcelona players thrive on and practice every day. But his Argentina teammates just don't have the same skill set to do that. And without that, it becomes much harder to turn a dribbling move into a scoring or assisting opportunity. So Messi is stuck dribbling into crowds and having few defense-splitting passes open.

Basically, I think perhaps Messi's game is a little reliant on his teammates making well timed runs and having the touch to make 1-2's in crowded areas. And he doesn't get that as much for Argentina, so it's harder for him to make stuff happen. He is left dribbling into crowds, trying to make shots outside the box (i.e. outside of the crowds of defenders), and/or trying to get goals through those well-timed late run into the box he does. He can still be quite effective doing that (and I really hope that he will be in the rest of this Copa America), but it's a significant difference from what he can do at Barcelona.

That's absurd. He had 3 great chances but missed them. You can say he needs to finish better with ARG. There was a great 1-2 combo with Di Maria that wasn't finished.

They absolutely dominated offensively yesterday.

You can say in the 2nd half it was like Barca v. Munica in the way tie. They let down a little bit and got killed defensively.

 

[blaugrana1987]

FFS I just watched WC Finals highlights. Why did I do that to myself?

 

[Stric]

FFS I just watched WC Finals highlights. Why did I do thar to myself?

I also saw that video today in the "suggested" section somewhere, but I was lucky enough to manage to get the hell outta there before I click.

 

[footyfan]

Messi was good, but not god mode. His form does seem to take a dip for Argentina. Not as big of one as people say, but a definite dip. I have some thoughts on why that is. I think the players for Argentina don't go on as many forward runs as Barcelona players do. And they don't practice together nearly as much, so Messi is not quite so used to where they want the ball or when they will make runs. His passing game is really all about splitting open the defense by passing to a guy making a well-timed run. If players don't go on those runs that often and you are not sure exactly when they will do it, you'll end up making a lot less of those great passes. Of course, no one has much practice with their NT teammates, so logically this would affect everyone, not just Messi. But other greats players' passing games aren't reliant quite so much on perfect timing, so I think this hurts Messi more than it might hurt other players at the NT level. If his passing isn't going to make quite so much of a difference, Messi is left to try to make a difference through dribbling. But to dribble, you need space. Yes, even Messi needs space to dribble. Barcelona gets him space in two key ways. First, players make runs. This drags defenders away from Messi OR gives Messi an open teammate to pass to. Again, Argentina's players don't make those runs nearly so often, so the defenders can bunch up and take away Messi's space. Second, when defenders do bunch up like that, Messi typically tries to play one-two's with Barcelona teammates. You can get through a crowded area much more easily without the ball, so he 1-2's his way through crowds. But that takes really precise one-touch passing, the type of passing Barcelona players thrive on and practice every day. But his Argentina teammates just don't have the same skill set to do that. And without that, it becomes much harder to turn a dribbling move into a scoring or assisting opportunity. So Messi is stuck dribbling into crowds and having few defense-splitting passes open.

Basically, I think perhaps Messi's game is a little reliant on his teammates making well timed runs and having the touch to make 1-2's in crowded areas. And he doesn't get that as much for Argentina, so it's harder for him to make stuff happen. He is left dribbling into crowds, trying to make shots outside the box (i.e. outside of the crowds of defenders), and/or trying to get goals through those well-timed late run into the box he does. He can still be quite effective doing that (and I really hope that he will be in the rest of this Copa America), but it's a significant difference from what he can do at Barcelona.

Yes! Argentina's main problem is their lack of offensive off-the-ball runs. Aguero, Di Maria and midfielders all like the ball to feet or are ball-hogs. Everyone wants to create, not score. The sole exception is Higuain, and unfortunately he's shite

Neymar's original game-style was also like this (in fact for Brazil, he still has his original style) but for Barca he's added an entire CR7-like side to his game that has hugely benefited Messi in 2014/15.

 

[blaugrana1987]

He actually played good game...He was soooo close. Fuck if only they lost 3 0 there would be no regrets. They had more clear cut chances, Messi as well. I was so sad that day and today I got suggested video and me being idiot I clicked it and just felt the same sadness like a year ago

 

[doublehh03]

He actually played good game...He was soooo close. Fuck if only they lost 3 0 there would be no regrets. They had more clear cut chances, Messi as well. I was so sad that day and today I got suggested video and me being idiot I clicked it and just felt the same sadness like a year ago

He had 2 mesmerizing runs that if he had scored would have been candidates for goal of the year.

Hopefully his finishing gets better.

 

[lessthanjake]

what you said basically means that on a regular basis an ace player cannot shine against a good team if his teammates are average. if his teammates can't play one-twos, if his teammates do not make forward runs for him to assist them, if his teammates can't assist him when he makes those forward runs, if his teammates can't get him space, if he is marked by at least 3 players ALL THE TIME, name me one player who would do more than him in his role? so, basically if we put messi in even a worse team it will be safe to say that he sucks because he won't be able to win matches for them right? he puts even more effort in argentina games if you ask me because he really does it alone there. and south american teams are harder to play against then europian, because in south america they play like bulls, pushing, shoving, pulling, tackling, kicking, fighting, you dont get an inch of space like against Armenia for example.

It's not so much the teammates being average. Argentina actually has a lot of good players. It's about the fact that they are not used to the same style of play as Messi is. Barcelona's offense is really wildly different from other teams. Obviously, every team makes runs and does 1-2's, but Barcelona is basically entirely built on that. The players practice it every day and, as a result, have it down. But many good players are used to different offensive styles, such as counterattacking with pace or working the ball down the wings and swinging in crosses. Those players will not be able to just pick up the tiki-taka, constant motion style Barcelona has. That's why many very good players take a long while to get used to it when they move to Barcelona. What I am saying is that I think Messi's game really benefits from having players used to it. But Argentina's players simply aren't versed in that style. And while it's quite probable that the high-quality players Argentina has could actually learn to do that stuff effectively, NTs don't practice together enough for that to be realistic. So Messi is left with teammates who simply do not have the experience to effectively pull off the style he thrives most in.

 

[Flavia]

I think it's normal Messi's finishing is a bit off. He just finished a season with over 5000 minutes. No wonder players performances aren't always the best in those tournaments.

 

[blaugrana1987]

Is not even about that...Messi can play any kind of game and be best at it because his footballing IQ is beyond most world class players that ever played the game. Counter, possesion or bus parking with sprinkle of attack here in there, he is best at it. Its that his teammates just aren't used to playing with that kind of guy. When they pass him the ball they don't know what to expect, they don't know where to run, don't know where to turn. They just arent in tune with him...His game would benefit of someone who is similarly raw and instinctual, like Suarez or Iniesta.

Watching WC final I have reached the conclusion that Higuain and Palacio can fuck themselves. One is not anymore in NT, but other is, and he shouldn't be. Maradona won the WC being brilliant, but in final it was all Valdano and Burruchaga. Messi can't count on that if Aguero is out of form, therefore what this NT needs is good cleansing and fresh blood to get in tune for next WC. Thats why NT exist in first place...

Biggest problem is in fact that AFA is fucking trash that put cocked out Diego in coaching position and the other coach that had a beef with Tevez so he brought the guy who cannot get playing time in fucking Inter Milan with them. And how did that repay them? Most important misses in history of their NT. Hopefully they integrate some new guys along with good spine that is Messi, Ottamendi, Aguero, ADM and Banega because thinking Higuain, Tevez and Lavezzi will do them good while young players come to an age could bite them in the ass.

 

[footyfan]

I think it's normal Messi's finishing is a bit off. He just finished a season with over 5000 minutes. No wonder players performances aren't always the best in those tournaments.

Don't remember him missing any chances yesterday.

 

[Flavia]

Don't remember him missing any chances yesterday.

I remember at least one, he shot straight at the gk.

 

[lessthanjake]

That's absurd. He had 3 great chances but missed them. You can say he needs to finish better with ARG. There was a great 1-2 combo with Di Maria that wasn't finished.

They absolutely dominated offensively yesterday.

You can say in the 2nd half it was like Barca v. Munica in the way tie. They let down a little bit and got killed defensively.

He misses plenty of chances for Barcelona too. Even the best strikers miss tons of chances. Overall, his scoring with Argentina since 2012 is not actually that much worse (he has 27 goals in his last 30 matches with them, I think). That's a bit below his Barcelona scoring, but Argentina doesn't outclass most of its opponents in the same way Barcelona does, so you'd expect him to score a little less. So I'm not sure the problem is really that he is missing way more chances for Argentina. To me, the biggest difference in watching him with Argentina and Barcelona is that with Argentina his dribbling really often seems to just lead into a crowd, where he's often dispossessed. For Barcelona, similar dribbling runs seem way more likely to be the start of a dangerous move. And while he does have many wonderful assists for Argentina, I think we also see a little less of his glorious through balls. I think the reasons for those things are what I said in my earlier post: fewer well-timed runs from teammates, and teammates not well versed enough in tiki-taka to be super effective with 1-2's. Of course you can come up with isolated examples where Argentina players make runs or do 1-2's with Messi, but it's a matter of how often that stuff happens. At Barcelona, it's all the time. With Argentina, it's not.