JamDav1982
Senior Member
2015 Messi went to RW and team played on break.
Were best counter attacking side in the world.
The best counter attacking teams are winning the CL most seasons.
10 - Lionel Messi - v5
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
2015 Messi went to RW and team played on break.
Were best counter attacking side in the world.
The best counter attacking teams are winning the CL most seasons.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
I don't doubt that, we probably need griezmann and dembele to have any semblance of a counter attack tho. and for messi to stop his dropping into midfield nonsense.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Totally agree.
Messi needs to stay in final third more and proper midfield built again.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
and there's nothing wrong with that. CR7 isn't some scrub who simply can't be regarded as the best in the world.
Ousmane Dembélé
Banned
For the sake of the team I hope Messi moves back to the wing.
For those couple of months he played on the wing not every single attack and build up play went through him. The other players were able to play independently to some extent and not force every ball to Messi.
He let the game come to him instead of interjecting himself in every single move like he does these days.
He can still easily play on the wing even now, but he's not prepared to do that since he won't see as much of the ball and will be forced to make more movement to join the play.
He just wants to stand stationary in the middle of the pitch and have every ball from every part of the pitch go through him, which IMO has negatively impacted the team.
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JamDav1982
Senior Member
Yeah totally agree.
Ideally for me Messi RW and Griezmann was signed. Messi could come in centrally at times and Griezmann go to RW if he needs a rest of opposition LB getting too much room.
Wont happen though. Messi will be central again next season.
I've been reading this forum for years but i never felt compelled to participate actively because i used to have a tendency to enter in endless arguments and spend way too much time raging online.
Nevertheless, i will do an exception as this situation is, in my regard, becoming worrisome for Barça and even Messi legacy.
First of all, it is undeniable that Barça and Messi are linked in perspective, success and defeat with what Real and Ronaldo do. Trying to separate these things when they don't go our way isn't healthy nor very honest. This is the sole reason this decade long rivalry between not only 2 players, but 2 clubs, will probably end up being one of the most memorable golden ages of the sport EVER.
This being said, it is obvious to me that anyone blaming Messi for the club's situation in the CL, is a lunatic. When the team plays so out of character, it is very very hard to get out of that inexplicable funk. We've seen it so many times that being surprised by it is not normal. Specially playing against top squads, you KNOW that if you take 1 goal early, the tie is wide open. Mental is 50% of the game. And when a team manages to shatter it, there's no tactics or individuals who can save the day. Only little miracles.
Listen guys, Real got into the EXACT same position than us. They took early goals and everything broke down. They were saved by an individual / collective miracle at the very end. Otherwise, 90% of the recent comments here wouldn't even exist.
Now, we have to agree that Messi and CR are extremely different players. We couldn't create 2 superstars, top 5 players ever without doubt, more different than they are. Physically, mentally, in their game, in their appearance, in their presence, they are YIN and YANG of football.
This being said, i've learn not to pick one above the other because, as we have seen for 10 years now, some of their attributes will prevail in ways that might give them the edge depending on the situation.
Messi will carry the team with more consistence and, therefore, Barça will be champions in Spains more often.
CR is more decisive in crunch time and this will give Real the Edge in knockout competitions.
All those statistics, that can be twisted and read the way you want to suit your argument, become meaningless when we are talking about such unreal numbers. It's like trying to beat infinity with more infinity. It's redundant and will not explain anything.
What i personally believe is that with age, CR MENTAL assets are turning him into someone that, slowly but surely, is proving that he IS what Messi SHOULD be as a captain.
What made the difference in these 2 games might just be the natural attitude of Messi and CR. Messi was the exact same player he always was. Supreme magician with the ball but lacks the GUTS and the strength of character to somewhat inspire the team.
Yesterday i honestly felt, when Juve made the 0-3, that this was CR time. The way he yelled, screamed, run to the balls and won challenges trough strength was typical of someone who WANTS the team to be in such dire situations just because it's a chance for him to shine ever better. He might JUST BE THAT COCKY.
Messi, on the other hand, most times a big problem pops-up, gives off the feeling that he is afraid that his legacy might be tainted. And when he does something to save the day, it's like no one remembers... It's a strange thing that, like i said, comes from the DISTINCT NATURE of both players.
Messi wasn't any different than he was. CR neither. Those 2 players are just different. Expect than their skills can save the day everyday at every moment.
Anyway, all it takes to erase all this is Messi wining a WC. People normally laugh at the idea but most of the GREATS manages to pull this off. Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo 9, Ronaldonho, Zidane and even CR7 (Euro but it's the equivalent as Portugal team is subpar).
I often compare Messi vs CR to the Lebron vs MJ discussion.
Both Messi and Lebron are statistically better and their all around brilliance make it almost ridiculous to compare them to anyone. But for some reason, the DECISIVENESS factor that Jordan had, and that CR is starting to get at age 33 (Like MJ also come in it's absolute best around that age), is the only reason why people keep them in the conversation and, in some cases, even pick them above the other.
In other words, stop stressing about Messi. He will be TOP for years to come no matter what. And in a few months, he might even be far away as the best ever.
Nevertheless, i will do an exception as this situation is, in my regard, becoming worrisome for Barça and even Messi legacy.
First of all, it is undeniable that Barça and Messi are linked in perspective, success and defeat with what Real and Ronaldo do. Trying to separate these things when they don't go our way isn't healthy nor very honest. This is the sole reason this decade long rivalry between not only 2 players, but 2 clubs, will probably end up being one of the most memorable golden ages of the sport EVER.
This being said, it is obvious to me that anyone blaming Messi for the club's situation in the CL, is a lunatic. When the team plays so out of character, it is very very hard to get out of that inexplicable funk. We've seen it so many times that being surprised by it is not normal. Specially playing against top squads, you KNOW that if you take 1 goal early, the tie is wide open. Mental is 50% of the game. And when a team manages to shatter it, there's no tactics or individuals who can save the day. Only little miracles.
Listen guys, Real got into the EXACT same position than us. They took early goals and everything broke down. They were saved by an individual / collective miracle at the very end. Otherwise, 90% of the recent comments here wouldn't even exist.
Now, we have to agree that Messi and CR are extremely different players. We couldn't create 2 superstars, top 5 players ever without doubt, more different than they are. Physically, mentally, in their game, in their appearance, in their presence, they are YIN and YANG of football.
This being said, i've learn not to pick one above the other because, as we have seen for 10 years now, some of their attributes will prevail in ways that might give them the edge depending on the situation.
Messi will carry the team with more consistence and, therefore, Barça will be champions in Spains more often.
CR is more decisive in crunch time and this will give Real the Edge in knockout competitions.
All those statistics, that can be twisted and read the way you want to suit your argument, become meaningless when we are talking about such unreal numbers. It's like trying to beat infinity with more infinity. It's redundant and will not explain anything.
What i personally believe is that with age, CR MENTAL assets are turning him into someone that, slowly but surely, is proving that he IS what Messi SHOULD be as a captain.
What made the difference in these 2 games might just be the natural attitude of Messi and CR. Messi was the exact same player he always was. Supreme magician with the ball but lacks the GUTS and the strength of character to somewhat inspire the team.
Yesterday i honestly felt, when Juve made the 0-3, that this was CR time. The way he yelled, screamed, run to the balls and won challenges trough strength was typical of someone who WANTS the team to be in such dire situations just because it's a chance for him to shine ever better. He might JUST BE THAT COCKY.
Messi, on the other hand, most times a big problem pops-up, gives off the feeling that he is afraid that his legacy might be tainted. And when he does something to save the day, it's like no one remembers... It's a strange thing that, like i said, comes from the DISTINCT NATURE of both players.
Messi wasn't any different than he was. CR neither. Those 2 players are just different. Expect than their skills can save the day everyday at every moment.
Anyway, all it takes to erase all this is Messi wining a WC. People normally laugh at the idea but most of the GREATS manages to pull this off. Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo 9, Ronaldonho, Zidane and even CR7 (Euro but it's the equivalent as Portugal team is subpar).
I often compare Messi vs CR to the Lebron vs MJ discussion.
Both Messi and Lebron are statistically better and their all around brilliance make it almost ridiculous to compare them to anyone. But for some reason, the DECISIVENESS factor that Jordan had, and that CR is starting to get at age 33 (Like MJ also come in it's absolute best around that age), is the only reason why people keep them in the conversation and, in some cases, even pick them above the other.
In other words, stop stressing about Messi. He will be TOP for years to come no matter what. And in a few months, he might even be far away as the best ever.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
From 1994's final Milan:Barca 4:0.
This is why I have nightmares from physical teams and why I do appreciate some workhorses and hate when we play only with short-light players.
I am watching Roma:Barca/Atletico:Barca/Milan:Barca (the same match over and over again and the same mistakes and exactly the same scenario and patterns over and over again) for the last 24 years.
About trophies, well, those teams didn't have Messi.
I honestly expected more in the last few years.
Well he has to drop into midfield if the ball isn't getting to him just like the other night. Even argentina get the ball to him more than we saw on tuesday
JamDav1982
Senior Member
If the team is built on him dropping to help then he should be doing it. Not that he made much difference against Roma.
The debate is more about what people think is best for Barca going forward.
KingLeo10
Senior Member
Messi is not some football god (no one is), although we are endeared to him (look at my name here lol) because he has been the best player in multiple CL/multiple liga/treble winning teams and is one of the top 3 ever in nearly everyone's eyes. But man, it's hard to win at the absolute top level in europe. there are some fantastic clubs in the list I gave with history comparable to ours in every way.
I have yet to come across a player who led a team to multiple big titles solely on his own. for all the praise CR7 is getting now (rightfully so), he couldn't drag real to CLs when the rest of team wasn't cut for it and had the likes of ozil and diarra and arbeloa and higuain.
also the same way physical players are our kryptonite, teams used to dread our midfield/forwards being untouchable/unable to get the ball from in our pomp. it's playing style more than anything. we saw what happened with valverde. neither style nor trophy. in fact, we got embarrassed.
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snowy
Well-known member
This ↑
Man if you replace Messi with Ronaldo, this Barca team would've been in La Liga relegation territory. With zero delivery at the box, Ronaldo would be lucky if he managed to reach double digits in goals. Not even trollin
The fuck with these BS Ronaldo = Messi comparisons. Bunch of pussy accountants counting trophies when there's so many variables at play.
henias
New member
Messi has a habit of holding the ball too much, he needs to be more decisive and quick in releasing the ball, and if he knows there is 5-6 defenders surrounding him then he needs to pass back and not try to dribble his way through.
But I still feel with the presence of Dembele, he will pass to him more because in Rome, there was no threat in the flanks and everyone is too weak, slow or afraid to go forward.
I think Dembele can solve the Messi being too central issue because we have seen Dembele and Messi switching positions, and Dembele is able to create and draw defenders as well, especially the game vs Chelsea where Dembele was centre and forced Messi on the right where he scored the first goal.
But I still feel with the presence of Dembele, he will pass to him more because in Rome, there was no threat in the flanks and everyone is too weak, slow or afraid to go forward.
I think Dembele can solve the Messi being too central issue because we have seen Dembele and Messi switching positions, and Dembele is able to create and draw defenders as well, especially the game vs Chelsea where Dembele was centre and forced Messi on the right where he scored the first goal.
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