10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[bismp]

I too agree that he needs to improve his goal CL and WC knockout scoring record and overall performance (from 2014 and onwards) for a player of his stature, but we can't say that goals are everything.

Yeah,goals are not everything,that's true.Leo has had many great performances without scoring a goal.But he has also had just "ok" performances which were regarded as great just because he scored a goal,for example vs Chelsea away or vs Arsenal in 2016.You can't expect of him to do everything of course,but in 2014 and 2016-2018 CL knockouts,it feels like out of 5 games,in 2 of them he is mediocre,in 2 of them he is decent but it is regarded as great because he scored and in only 1 game he is truly great.I mean,that's still better than most players out there,but let's not pretend it is nowhere near Messi levels.

Like in 2015 CL, Neymar scored from the QF upwards and Messi only had 2 goals of all 2015 CL knockout stages. However, nobody will say that Neymar deserves the 2015 Ballon D'or more over Messi just because he scored more goals in the knockout stage. Messi had a greater overall performance in all attacking aspects such as key passes, dribbles, assists that sometimes scoring goals isn't enough. Goals do play a big part in evaluating overall performance, but it shouldn't be everything.

Leo indeed was the MVP in 2015 campaign,but Neymar and Suarez also played immensely well.For example,I think it is clear that Messi played the worst out of the 3 in both PSG games and against Bayern away(still played well though).

The thing is that when he plays bad,he really seems lost and uninterested in the game,like quitting,while the games were often still in hand.And it has happened too many times in the past 5 years to avoid noticing it.

Vs Atletico in 2014(both ties iirc)
Vs Atleltico in 2016(the same)
Vs PSG in 2017,both away and at home(Neymar basically made the remontada possible,i vividly remember Leo giving up)
Vs Juventus at home,in 2017
Vs Roma away last year

 

[biraboyz]

In a maths way, it will be simpler for people to except something like:
1. winning a domestic league=2 points
2. playing extremely well as an individual in a domestic league=2 points
3. winning a Champions league=3 points
4. playing extremely well in a Champions league as an individual=3 points
5. winning a World cup=5 points
6. playing extremely well at a World cup as an individual=3 points
7. add some points for marketing, politics, popularity

This is just my personal rough idea and estimation, of course.
Messi this year:
La liga 2 points, individual in La liga 2 points, nothing more=4 points
Cr7:
Individual in La Liga 2 points, CL win 3 points, CL individual 3 points=8 points
Modric:
Individual in La Liga 0-1 points, CL win 3 points, CL individual 2-3 point, WC final 3 points, WC individual 3 points=11-13 points
Mbappe:
Domestic title 2 points, individual in domestic 1 point, WC win 4 points, Wc individual 4 points=10-11 points
Griezmann:
Wc title 4 points, WC individual 4 points=8 points
Salah:
Individual domestic 2 points, CL final 1-2 points, CL individual 1 point, 0 points for a WC=4-5 points

You guys have to accept a pecking order:
1. WC titles and performances
2. general individual performances, MOSTLY at WC and a CL, not that much in a domestic league against smaller clubs
3. CL titles
4. league titles

I will sound like a dick, but to some extent, judges and average football fans don't rate good matches against Las Palmas and Getafe as much as CL quarters, semis, finals and WC matches, for a reason.

When Messi was winning BallonDOrs, Barca was winning La Ligas, we were winning Cls, or we were at least close to it.
In the last few years, we are nowhere near winning CL's.
In La liga we are winning but not in a way as before.
And Messi's level has dropped a lot compared to his level from 5-10 years ago.
He is still on a good level in La liga, where the opponents are weaker.
In a CL knockout stage and at WC, he is rarely presenting crazy one-man-show matches like 5-10 years ago.

You can blame it only on EV, but BOTH Messi's level has dropped and Barca's level has dropped.



As I have said, IMO, majority of you are biased.
Do you know how we are making fun of French league, and calling it a farmer's league?
And we say that wins and goals in La Ligue don't matter since the opponents are very weak?

Well, to some extent, La Liga (and all domestic competitions) are "farmer's leagues" compared to a CL and World cups.

People will reply: yes, but you are playing La liga for 10 Months. You need consistency!
True.
But still, 80% of matches in La liga are against Getafe, Levante, Girona, Las Palmas and similar. Against very weak and poor clubs with mediocre players.
Being excellent for 10 Months against weak sides is realistically nowhere near as important as knocking out Juve, AM, Real, Barca, Liverpool, Chelsea, City, Bayern in a CL knockout matches.

Not to mention a World cup.

Some will reply: Argentina sucks, yadda yadda yadda.
Fine, but Barca has the best team in the world, according to some fans here.
We have the best team and Messi and yet, we won only 1 CL in 7 years.

My point is: ok, Argentina is average compared to France.
But Barca is superior to AM, Dortmund, Psg, Roma, Juve, English teams, and we still won only 1 CL in 7 years.

This is not only about Messi.
The point is: you have to come and prove yourself over and over at the biggest stage.
And both Barca and Messi have failed in that in majority of the last 7 years.

So, maybe BallonDOr is not that corrupted and dirty.
We just didn't show too much apart from trashing La liga teams over and over and losing in a CL in same fashion year after year whenever we meet a first decent opponent.

Seems a good point, but player won the award with Zero trophy. This is more of PR marketing than individual players performance

 

[soul24rage]

The thing is that when he plays bad,he really seems lost and uninterested in the game,like quitting,while the games were often still in hand.And it has happened too many times in the past 5 years to avoid noticing it.

Vs Atletico in 2014(both ties iirc)
Vs Atleltico in 2016(the same)
Vs PSG in 2017,both away and at home(Neymar basically made the remontada possible,i vividly remember Leo giving up)
Vs Juventus at home,in 2017
Vs Roma away last year

I'm sure a lot of people in this forum will agree that both the team AND Messi must improve their overall performance in these types of games. Too many times in recent years have Barca played without any effort/fight/intensity in them whenever they are in a losing position or whenever a team is dominating them (Only the PSG home game was the exception).

 

[Question17]

I too agree that he needs to improve his goal CL and WC knockout scoring record and overall performance (from 2014 and onwards) for a player of his stature, but we can't say that goals are everything. Like in 2015 CL, Neymar scored from the QF upwards and Messi only had 2 goals of all 2015 CL knockout stages. However, nobody will say that Neymar deserves the 2015 Ballon D'or more over Messi just because he scored more goals in the knockout stage. Messi had a greater overall performance in all attacking aspects such as key passes, dribbles, assists that sometimes scoring goals isn't enough. Goals do play a big part in evaluating overall performance, but it shouldn't be everything.

2010 WC, I'm not gonna say anything about this WC as even you have to admit that he was managed by an idiot.
2014 WC, played well in the round of 16 and QF overall. Bit invisible in the SF as Argentina was defensive. Had a great chance in the final.
2018 WC, came alive after France's 4th goal, but little too late with another idiot coach.

He should really improve his goal scoring record in the knockout stage, but his overall performance in all the WC he played is above average for me. He should improve his CL knockout performance from recent years though.



They should just really name the Ballon D'or to the CL/WC knockout stage D'or. For me, La Liga=CL in terms of importance (wanted to counter your post about La Liga having 80% mediocre team, but we would be going on forever about this). If you seen some of the picks from the Ballon D'or voters this year, you can really tell what type of games they've only watched this year.

I don't really mind the give it to the "best" player of the team who won/runner up the biggest trophies. You get some variety that way with the positions that win it. Its already super rare for a non forward to win it. This decade of nothing but forwards winning it, I didn't like it.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Bitching about past CL campaigns again i see, pathetic.

And Messi has only ever been poor/mediocre in CL QF, i'm shure lack of rest after NT games have something to do with that.

 

[Morten]

Bitching about past CL campaigns again i see, pathetic.

And Messi has only ever been poor/mediocre in CL QF, i'm shure lack of rest after NT games have something to do with that.

Im not even sure what Messi was supposed to do in this world cup, given how disorganized his side was.
The same argument can be made for other players too, who played in relative poor NTs, not everyone is blessed to be born in France.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Imo Messi doesn't really play worse in k.o. games. I think it more comes down to better opponents being able to expose his weaknesses and his overall effect on the team. In important games the opponent is better prepared, the players give their absolute best, run their lungs out etc and can expose our weaknesses better than in a regular league match. While Messi can't really up his individual performance that much unless he could suddenly start running and defending on top of his awesome skills but i think thats just not physically possible for him.

Messi barely runs, is poor on defense and is the absolute center piece of our tactic. First two probably can't be changed but at least the last part could be worked on. If we wouldn't rely so much on Messi then a poor individual showing of him wouldn't be so devasting and it would take attention from him potentially giving him more room to breath to play a bit more like la liga. But that may also be easier said than done since its already hard to even figure out a formation for that.

Individually, from pure football skills and IQ Messi is still by far the best in the world in my opinion, but ironically it's not easy to build a functioning team around the best player.

 

[biraboyz]

So Modric 0 MOTM and CR7 4 MOTM in 13 UCL games vs Messi 6-8.
It shows that RM had a better team than one playerfrom Barca carrying the squad.
Individual Award that credit trophies more than players performance.
At least in the NBA MVP they choose the better performance in that year or season, with or without trophies

 

[Mitchell1978]

So Modric 0 MOTM and CR7 4 MOTM in 13 UCL games vs Messi 6-8.
It shows that RM had a better team than one playerfrom Barca carrying the squad.
Individual Award that credit trophies more than players performance.
At least in the NBA MVP they choose the better performance in that year or season, with or without trophies

Adding to that, in the NBA awards are given by people of the press who follow the whole season up close and watch most of the games. I'm willing to bet voters for the Ballon D'or just look at stats and watch the occasional big game.

 

[raskolnikov]

Imo Messi doesn't really play worse in k.o. games. I think it more comes down to better opponents being able to expose his weaknesses and his overall effect on the team. In important games the opponent is better prepared, the players give their absolute best, run their lungs out etc and can expose our weaknesses better than in a regular league match. While Messi can't really up his individual performance that much unless he could suddenly start running and defending on top of his awesome skills but i think thats just not physically possible for him.

Messi barely runs, is poor on defense and is the absolute center piece of our tactic. First two probably can't be changed but at least the last part could be worked on. If we wouldn't rely so much on Messi then a poor individual showing of him wouldn't be so devasting and it would take attention from him potentially giving him more room to breath to play a bit more like la liga. But that may also be easier said than done since its already hard to even figure out a formation for that.

Individually, from pure football skills and IQ Messi is still by far the best in the world in my opinion, but ironically it's not easy to build a functioning team around the best player.

Its difficult to lessen the messidependencia when we rely on him for creativity and goals. Our whole system and tactics is weird and messed up.
Ronaldo was always what made a good team very good in Real and Juve now.

I remember when Henry left Arsenal he said it was better since players felt forced to pass to him and after which they played some freely great football.
I feel if we depart from Messi it could be similair or like Madrid currently.
Dont know if its better but unless we are getting a good coach he isnt getting near a cl or ballon d’or again.

 

[El Flaco]

[tw]1070269942057103361[/tw]

Diario AS editor Alfredo Relaño is entrusted with casting the Spanish media's ballot in the voting for the Ballon d'Or. This year, his chosen five were:

Six points: Antoine Griezmann (Atlético Madrid/France)
Four points: Kylian Mbappé (Paris Saint-Germain/France)
Three points: Luka Modric (Real Madrid/Croatia)
Two points: Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid/Juventus/Portugal)
One point: Lionel Messi (Barcelona/Argentina)

[........]

On why he voted Messi at 5th place

This was a World Cup year, and in such years we also have a duty to look particularly closely at what happened at the tournament when it came to the crunch. I was talking to [Fabio] Capello about it, and he said: 'The World Cup is the pinnacle - the best against the best, in an environment in which the pressure couldn't be greater. A player who is a stand-out performer at a World Cup is a player who truly has something special.'

And the fact is, the World Cup is something that damages Messi's case, because he doesn't play as well for Argentina, save for the odd particularly good game. If he played [for Barcelona] like he does for his country, we wouldn't consider him an all-time great; we'd see him as just one of the very good players on the scene at that particular moment in time.

 

[Gnidrologist]

That's a reasonable stance, unfortunately. Think everyone know that talent wise Messi has no rivals, but such is life. Only problem with this is the players that get to be above him aside from Modric. That's laughable.

 

[Givenchy]

I don't agree with the WC being the pinnacle, atleast not these days. its not the best of the best either when you have the likes of Italy not even qualifying. imo you don't even get that 'fever' anymore during the world cup. in the UK the memes of 'its coming home' is the closest to WC fever we've had in england for a long long time

Messi needed to do more in the WC i agree on that but Leo and Ronaldo aren't exactly blessed with great teams. don't tell me Modric carried Croatia either, Rakitic was great also especially his pressure pens

 

[KingLeo10]

Personally, in terms of the star power and degree of difficulty, 2006 was the last truly great WC. 8-9 really good sides: Italy, France, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Germany, Spain, England and Netherlands. Compare that to the current WC where only really France had a standout squad.

The CL has seen some superteams in recent years: Barca 09-11, United 07-09, Barca 2015, Real 14-17, Bayern 13 that would handily beat any of the sides of this past WC. Unfortunately, it appears that the CL is back on a downturn as there are no great sides there anymore.

 

[Hardy]

So Modric 0 MOTM and CR7 4 MOTM in 13 UCL games vs Messi 6-8.
It shows that RM had a better team than one playerfrom Barca carrying the squad.
Individual Award that credit trophies more than players performance.
At least in the NBA MVP they choose the better performance in that year or season, with or without trophies

This is just not true, generally MVP goes to the best player of a team with the best or second best record in rs, it's not all about individual performance, Lebron is indisputably the best player in the league and he won literally zero MVP in the last 5 years. Team record has a huge influence just like trophies for the ballon d'or so at the end of the day criteria are basically the same.