10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[DonAK]

Sure, we can do that as well. We'd get a ton of money for Messi though. We could build a new team with young talent.

Messi and Suarez together are a bad combo though. We need to split that up and for that we need a top manager willing to take the difficult necessary decisions. Whoever will be against that needs to be sold no matter the name.

Zidane's Madrid, Pep's City, Klopp's Liverpool, Allegri's Juventus, all these teams are manager-centric. Whatever the manager decides it is a rule every player follows. At Barcelona the senior players decide. Not the manager.

You also need a top manager, and the management + board to bring in the right manager to build a new team with young talent. We've had this discussion about selling Messi before so I won't partake in it this time.

If you want Barca to end up like Man Utd then selling Messi is a pretty good deal, sure.

 

[serghei]

You also need a top manager and management + board to bring in the right manager to build a new team with young talent. We've had this discussion about selling Messi before so I won't partake in it this time.

From a bussness and team perspective, selling Messi in the next 2 years is the best decision. Or else we're gonna be a past it team led by a past it player at the highest level. This Champions League should shed some light on this, whether it's true or not.

Messi's power at Barcelona has increased, while his performances declined. All under questionable managers who allowed this to happen. It's very hard at this point for Messi to take full orders from a manager like a regular player. He will play his own game and the managers need to adapt to that.

This, at the highest level, doesn't work.

 

[DonAK]

From a bussness and team perspective, selling Messi in the next 2 years is the best decision.

Not until I hear a convincing argument about it.

Messi is still the biggest asset the club got commercially, and the best player by far on this team and a top 3 player in the World.

You think these casual fans in Asia and the US care about Coutinho or Dembele? lol

 

[DonAK]

I guess we can sell Messi for 150m and then hire Unzue and sign Lobotka, Daniel Wass and Guidetti.

That should do the team and club well.

 

[gasgas]

i'm imagining with Messi gone

.......................Ter stegen
Semedo...De ligt.......Umtiti..........Alba
.......................Weigl
............De Jong.....Puig....
..................Coutinho
...........Malcom....Dembele

All pace and creativity

 

[KingMessi]

Sell Messi? Are you fucking kidding me.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Sure, we can do that as well. We'd get a ton of money for Messi though. We could build a new team with young talent.

We have spent a ton of money though and have young talent.

The midfield and tactically limited manager are the problems, Messi is the last.

 

[eaman]

Ye're all crazy. Sell him and the team are far worse. You'll have less goals and less chances created and less trophies

 

[serghei]

Not until I hear a convincing argument about it.

Messi is still the biggest asset the club got commercially, and the best player by far on this team and a top 3 player in the World.

You think these casual fans in Asia and the US care about Coutinho or Dembele? lol

Well, you want arguments? Here are some.

1) He gets older and naturally his impact on the big games is reduced compared with the past. More and more teams in CL block him rather easily at their home ground where they play with a kind of intensity Messi hasn't showed in almost 4 years.

2) It's one of our last chances of getting a lot of money for him, and clearing some of our huge wage cap. If we sell Messi next season we'd get around 400m. in fee + wage release, which we could reinvest in the new Barcelona. The Barcelona of Puig, Dembele, Coutinho, Alena etc.

3) Messi liberty of action causes imbalances in the team. In the past he was moving a lot more in order to keep a good shape for the team. Now, if he doesn't feel like moving, he doesn't care that the team is left with huge holes. Messi's attitude on the field is that of a king. He moves how he likes, when he likes, if he likes, and everybody else needs to do their best to cope with that and hide that.

But he will never be sold. I don't see us winning the CL in the next 3 years. Or getting very close to that. Not unless some huge changes miraculously happen. Team is so deeply entrenched with bad habits and unnatural relationships inside it, that such chances are very very unlikely unless shocking moves are make and we start fresh.

We have spent a ton of money though and have young talent.

The midfield and tactically limited manager are the problems, Messi is the last.

How can Messi be one of the last problems when our problems in the CL especially were lack of constant movement and lack of intensity, and Messi si the absolute worst at both? Messi is the least hard working player in the team, and the least mobile, and has the most freedom of action.

You combine those 3 facts and you get a problematic player for CL, where teams don't fall for his dribbles and his passes to Alba or Suarez anymore.

You guys are so trapped in this narrative that Messi as better than ever, that you don't see he's not one of the top 3 players in the world anymore, had a shit World Cup, hasn't scored in CL quarters in like 5 years and so on.

Which is fine. But stop making our gameplay as if Messi is able to carry this team against the best. He's clearly not fit to do that. Messi should be another player in the team. With clear roles and obligations. Just like when Dembele is benched if he plays like shit, so should Messi if he doesn't try enough or doesn't cover his area well enough, or doesn't do anythng off the ball mostly.

 

[CatalinR10]

Ye're all crazy. Sell him and the team are far worse. You'll have less goals and less chances created and less trophies

what else are we supossed to do with him if he doesn't score in all games ?

 

[DonAK]

Well, you want arguments? Here are some.

1) He gets older and naturally his impact on the big games is reduced compared with the past. More and more teams in CL block him rather easily at their home ground where they play with a kind of intensity Messi hasn't showed in almost 4 years.

2) It's one of our last chances of getting a lot of money for him, and clearing some of our huge wage cap. If we sell Messi next season we'd get around 400m. in fee + wage release, which we could reinvest in the new Barcelona. The Barcelona of Puig, Dembele, Coutinho, Alena etc.

3) Messi liberty of action causes imbalances in the team. In the past he was moving a lot more in order to keep a good shape for the team. Now, if he doesn't feel like moving, he doesn't care that the team is left with huge holes. Messi's attitude on the field is that of a king. He moves how he likes, when he likes, if he likes, and everybody else needs to do their best to cope with that and hide that.

But he will never be sold. I don't see us winning the CL in the next 3 years. Or getting very close to that. Not unless some huge changes miraculously happen. Team is so deeply entrenched with bad habits and unnatural relationships inside it, that such chances are very very unlikely unless shocking moves are make and we start fresh.

1) His impact in big games is still there and even if it's reduced it's noticeable bigger than anyone else on the team. Teams fear Messi, they don't fear Dembele or Coutinho or our midfield or our defenders. A proper manager would be able to take advantage of that to create a cohesive unit to get everyone else involved and put the other team on the backfoot.

2) Messi's contract runs out until 2021 and given how much time it took to renew him he likely has some sort of clause in his contract which we don't know about. Obviously I'm just speculating, but I won't be surprised if he got a way out of his contract like Dani Alves did. He's after all a smart dude and knows the intricacies with Barca and how the club previously have pondered selling him so they could launch Neymar as the face of the team(thank god we didn't do that, what a masterplan that would be right?).

3) Messi's liberty of action is because of the player he is. It was never a problem when we had a manager with a functional game plan as we did in 2014/15 and 2015/16. Once teams found out our tactical game plans and our managers still were devoid of any personality, it all got worse, but that's not on him. He's a great player, but he's not the manager. He's not the one who is supposed to tell him how to make the team play functional football.

We've been here before and somehow every season you always end up leading the 'Sell Messi' bandwagon.

You've always tried to make him out to be the biggest problem in the team and that's just BS and I won't fall for it or indulge it.

 

[Vilarrubi]

How can Messi be one of the last problems when our problems in the CL especially were lack of constant movement and lack of intensity, and Messi si the absolute worst at both? Messi is the least hard working player in the team, and the least mobile, and has the most freedom of action.

You combine those 3 facts and you get a problematic player for CL, where teams don't fall for his dribbles and his passes to Alba or Suarez anymore.

You guys are so trapped in this narrative that Messi as better than ever, that you don't see he's not one of the top 3 players in the world anymore, had a shit World Cup, hasn't scored in CL quarters in like 5 years and so on.

Which is fine. But stop making our gameplay as if Messi is able to carry this team against the best. He's clearly not fit to do that. Messi should be another player in the team. With clear roles and obligations. Just like when Dembele is benched if he plays like shit, so should Messi if he doesn't try enough or doesn't cover his area well enough, or doesn't do anythng off the ball mostly.

Let's go back to the Roma game then, if Messi had more movement and intensity the result would have been exactly the same. You could even swap Messi for ANY forward in the world and nothing would be different.

Roma were tactically perfect and completely dominated our midfield. We had 4 in midfield (you'd think that would have given us more control, probably Valverde's thought) and it was the worst midfield performance i've ever seen from Barca.. you can point to individual mistakes from maybe Pique and Umtiti but they shouldn't have been put under that amount of pressure. We even had Ter Stegen kicking the ball long because of that pressure, he didn't feel comfortable passing it out to our midfield... says a lot really.
Zero control of the game, zero risks taken.. just passing it sideways and backwards trying to play out the full 90.

In terms of the other CL defeats it's been similar but nowhere near as bad.. getting dominated and struggling to create chances. If you watch our midfield compared to Madrid's they are miles apart... our's is static, can't dribble with the ball, doesn't take risks.. Madrid's is dynamic always moving, creating space and taking risks. But let's blame Messi for not moving and pressing.

P.s I’m not saying Messi shouldn’t run more, but that’s not the reason for our defeats.

 

[serghei]

Let's go back to the Roma game then, if Messi had more movement and intensity the result would have been exactly the same. You could even swap Messi for ANY forward in the world and nothing would be different.

Roma were tactically perfect and completely dominated our midfield. We had 4 in midfield (you'd think that would have given us more control, probably Valverde's thought) and it was the worst midfield performance i've ever seen from Barca.. you can point to individual mistakes from maybe Pique and Umtiti but they shouldn't have been put under that amount of pressure. We even had Ter Stegen kicking the ball long because of that pressure, he didn't feel comfortable passing it out to our midfield... says a lot really.
Zero control of the game, zero risks taken.. just passing it sideways and backwards trying to play out the full 90.

In terms of the other CL defeats it's been similar but nowhere near as bad.. getting dominated and struggling to create chances. If you watch our midfield compared to Madrid's they are miles apart... our's is static, can't dribble with the ball, doesn't take risks.. Madrid's is dynamic always moving, creating space and taking risks. But let's blame Messi for not moving and pressing.

When the midfield is being overrun, it's the forwards' job to drop deeper and help, especially as you're defending a lead. Messi and Suarez played like they didn't give a shit though. They are certainly among the ones resposible for the defeat.

Movement and intensity are like the two most important things in the game in competitions where teams are of comparable value. As long as Messi is shit at both, he shouldn't be the one leading Barcelona's offense. Simple as that.

 

[te amo barca]

I agree with serghei. Messi's place in our gameplay is really a problem. Players leave everything to him, pass to him in all the situations. It is unnatural. There is no need to force him into our play. Because of this, our play is Messi basically now. We are playing as if Messi is still the same physical beast as he was before 2013, which is not true at this point. Barca is stuck in the past with the likes of Messi, Pique, Alba, Busi, Suarez and etc. still thinking they are the best in the world.

 

[DonAK]

I agree with serghei. Messi's place in our gameplay is really a problem. Players leave everything to him, pass to him in all the situations. It is unnatural. There is no need to force him into our play. Because of this, our play is Messi basically now. We are playing as if Messi is still the same physical beast as he was before 2013, which is not true at this point. Barca is stuck in the past with the likes of Messi, Pique, Alba, Busi, Suarez and etc. still thinking they are the best in the world.

Must be Messi's fault then and not the manager's.

Let's sell Messi. Should solve everything. Who cares about managers developing players or a tactical game plan, training attacking and defensive patterns all the time in training, holding players accountable.

Our players will magically understand how to play football and develop a grand tactical scheme without Messi scoring 40+ goals and delivering 15+ assists on the field.