10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[messi2140]

Sell Messi what a brilliant idea.

 

[Vilarrubi]

When the midfield is being overrun, it's the forwards' job to drop deeper and help, especially as you're defending a lead. Messi and Suarez played like they didn't give a shit though. They are certainly among the ones resposible for the defeat.

Movement and intensity are like the two most important things in the game. As long as Messi is shit at both, he shouldn't be the one leading Barcelona's offense. Simple as that.

No it isn't. You're telling me a 4 man Barcelona midfield should get overrun? You're skipping that problem (the main one) like it's nothing and blaming forwards for not dropping deeper.

So Messi drops deep gets the ball... then what? He's stuck in a deep position with the ball and about 8/9 Roma players in front of him.. Wouldn't change a thing. The midfields job is to be able to move the ball forward and get in an advanced position not the forwards.. what you are suggesting is Messi/Suarez dropping deep to be a 5th and 6th midfielder because the other 4 can't do their job? lol

A well functioning midfield shouldn't get "overrun".

 

[DonAK]

No it isn't. You're telling me a 4 man Barcelona midfield should get overrun? You're skipping that problem (the main one) like it's nothing and blaming forwards for not dropping deeper.

So Messi drops deep gets the ball... then what? He's stuck in a deep position with the ball and about 8/9 Roma players in front of him.. Wouldn't change a thing. The midfields job is to be able to move the ball forward and get in an advanced position not the forwards.. what you are suggesting is Messi/Suarez dropping deep to be a 5th and 6th midfielder because the other 4 can't do their job? lol

A well functioning midfield shouldn't get "overrun".

He would then complain about Messi dropping down deep and not listening to Valverde's tactical instructions of staying advanced up the field to receive the ball, or Messi not being able to dribble past those 7 Roma players and scoring.

 

[te amo barca]

Must be Messi's fault then and not the manager's.

Let's sell Messi. Should solve everything. Who cares about managers developing players or a tactical game plan, training attacking and defensive patterns all the time in training, holding players accountable.

Our players will magically understand how to play football and develop a grand tactical scheme without Messi scoring 40+ goals and delivering 15+ assists on the field.

I do not propose that we sell Messi. However we have had four managers since Pep and only one managed to make Messi play in a way that he would not be counter-productive for the fluidity of overall gameplay, and that was Lucho making Messi stick on the right wing for only a year. When Messi has an off day, which is happening more often as time goes by, we really are toothless. Barca looked more fluid without Messi because the players were not forced to pass it to him every single time because of some mental block. It is easy to blame the manager, which is the right thing to do atm because EV is terrible, but players should take responsibility too, and Messi has to step up in CL quarters and maybe tell the players "stop passing me the ball every goddamn time" or something. He is the captain now.

 

[serghei]

No it isn't. You're telling me a 4 man Barcelona midfield should get overrun? You're skipping that problem (the main one) like it's nothing and blaming forwards for not dropping deeper.

So Messi drops deep gets the ball... then what? He's stuck in a deep position with the ball and about 8/9 Roma players in front of him.. Wouldn't change a thing. The midfields job is to be able to move the ball forward and get in an advanced position not the forwards.. what you are suggesting is Messi/Suarez dropping deep to be a 5th and 6th midfielder because the other 4 can't do their job? lol

A well functioning midfield shouldn't get "overrun".

Yep. Roma managed to get 5 or even 6 players around our 4.

Roma had Nainggolan, De Rossi, Strootman, Kolarov and Florenzi. Even Schick dropped deep. They had at times as much as 6 players accessible in midfield, against our 4. Centrally, they had Nainggolan, De Rossi and Strootman. We had Rakitic and Busquets. 3 vs 2 there. And considering Nainggolan is a warrior at times, and he had a beast of a game, it wasn't hard for us to get outnumbered, overran and dominated.

All this while Messi and Suarez watched how our 4 got annihilated by Roma's 5. Roma had Strootman and De Rossi pouring long balls on Dzeko without pressure, because all Messi and Suarez did all game was to sit between their 3CBs waiting for god knows what.

Basic rule of football is that when you are defending a lead, you can't leave your midfield outnumbered while having 2 players up who don't defend at all. You can survive with 1, while the 2nd striker gets back to help the midfield and form the already classic 4-5-1. But not with 2.

 

[DonAK]

I do not propose that we sell Messi. However we have had four managers since Pep and only one managed to make Messi play in a way that he would not be counter-productive for the fluidity of overall gameplay, and that was Lucho making Messi stick on the right wing for only a year. When Messi has an off day, which is happening more often as time goes by, we really are toothless. Barca looked more fluid without Messi because the players were not forced to pass it to him every single time because of some mental block. It is easy to blame the manager, which is the right thing to do atm because EV is terrible, but players should take responsibility too, and Messi has to step up in CL quarters and maybe tell the players "stop passing me the ball every goddamn time" or something. He is the captain now.

That's just nonsense. We played well under Tito until he had to go off to NYC for his cancer treatment. Then the season under Tata was a shitshow. Everything worked fine under Lucho's first two seasons where we actually looked like a team that could beat anyone even though it stopped up against Atletico who also beat out other major teams.

Barca looking more fluid without Messi? Then why the fuck have we always struggled drawing or even losing the games having to sub him on when he's not available?

This is one of those instances with Sid Lowe writing about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...a-looked-beaten-with-him-they-look-unbeatable

Sure as hell looked fluid and well without him right?

And this is MARCA writing about Barca's struggles without Messi in other games as well:

http://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2018/04/02/5ac11ca2e2704e4c728b45ea.html

So where is the fluidity and game plan with players playing better that you're talking about?

 

[Vilarrubi]

Yep. Teams can get 5 men in that 4 man midfield.

Roma had Nainggolan, De Rossi, Strootman, Kolarov and Florenzi. Even Schick dropped deep. They had at times as much as 6 players accessible in midfield, against our 4. But Messi and Suarez watched how our 4 got annihilated by Roma's 5. Roma had Strootman and De Rossi pouring long balls on Dzeko without pressure, because all Messi and Suarez did all game was to sit between their 3CBs waiting for god knows what.

Haha what the hell man... You’re really clutching at straws.

We had Alba and Semedo in wide areas too so we did have 6 players around that midfield area. If 6 Barca players can’t move the ball forward up the pitch against Roma there is something drastically wrong. Yeah Messi/Suarez probably thinking wtf are they doing getting dominated with the high press of Roma.. any half decent midfield would be able to bypass the press.

 

[serghei]

First step would be to replace Suarez with Messi at false 9. Move Demebele on the right. Move Coutinho on the left wing as this midfield is way too stiff for him to be of great use there.

The we need to see how Messi plays at false 9 at this age and if he can do that sort of thing against big bold aggresive defenders. Can he handle playing between two beasts like Godin and Gimenez. Can he play between Ramos and Varane. Can he play between Bonucci and Chielini?

If not, than this is yet another issue. Messi can play false 9 or right wing. He has to play 80% of the time in those positions if he is to be effective against big teams.

Haha what the hell man... You’re really clutching at straws.

We had Alba and Semedo in wide areas too so we did have 6 players around that midfield area. If 6 Barca players can’t move the ball forward up the pitch against Roma there is something drastically wrong. Yeah Messi/Suarez probably thinking wtf are they doing getting dominated with the high press of Roma.. any half decent midfield would be able to bypass the press.

Nope.

Alba and Semedo can't do anything except stay close to the CBs most of the time. You never let your CBs unguarded vs big strong players like Dzeko. Basically you don't let Dzeko 1 vs 1 with Pique or Umtiti. As it proved, even Alba and Umtiti weren't enough, as Dzeko surpassed both and scored.

This is why teams play attackers in half spaces, between the CBs and fullbacks. To pin fullbacks back. Which is what Roma did. Played both Dzeko and Schick between corresponding fullback and corresponding CB. Pinned back all 4 as a result.

 

[te amo barca]

That's just nonsense. We played well under Tito until he had to go off to NYC for his cancer treatment. Then the season under Tata was a shitshow. Everything worked fine under Lucho's first two seasons where we actually looked like a team that could beat anyone even though it stopped up against Atletico who also beat out other major teams.

Barca looking more fluid without Messi? Then why the fuck have we always struggled drawing or even losing the games having to sub him on when he's not available?

This is one of those instances with Sid Lowe writing about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...a-looked-beaten-with-him-they-look-unbeatable

Sure as hell looked fluid and well without him right?

Nah, man. We were grinding out wins in 14/15 before Anoeta and had a brilliant year of 2015, two months of which Messi missed at the start of 15/16 season when Neymar & Suarez were tearing teams apart. Our most memorable victory against Madrid since 5-0 was won without Messi. Then Messi came back and decided he should play in the center starting from 2016, and the fuckery started. Enormous holes on the right left to be covered by Rakitic, terrible perfomances against Arsenal and a deserved elimination from Atletico. We almost bottled the league as well until we decided to turn up in an easy run of games at the end of the season. Then 16/17 began with the same problems. Like I said, it's really been just one really good year when we looked unbeatable. Messi's skill has always been enough to trash La Liga teams, it is the CL where he is not as effective any more. Though TBH he did dismantle Chelsea on his own last season, then the Roma meltdown happened.

 

[Stoichkov1]

How can Messi be one of the last problems when our problems in the CL especially were lack of constant movement and lack of intensity, and Messi si the absolute worst at both? Messi is the least hard working player in the team, and the least mobile, and has the most freedom of action.

You combine those 3 facts and you get a problematic player for CL, where teams don't fall for his dribbles and his passes to Alba or Suarez anymore.

You guys are so trapped in this narrative that Messi as better than ever, that you don't see he's not one of the top 3 players in the world anymore, had a shit World Cup, hasn't scored in CL quarters in like 5 years and so on.

Which is fine. But stop making our gameplay as if Messi is able to carry this team against the best. He's clearly not fit to do that. Messi should be another player in the team. With clear roles and obligations. Just like when Dembele is benched if he plays like shit, so should Messi if he doesn't try enough or doesn't cover his area well enough, or doesn't do anythng off the ball mostly.

You're truly deluded if you think that Messi is not a top 3 players in the world anymore.

Messi was able to carry this team against Madrid and Atletico in the league, scored against Juve and Chelsea in CL but I guess it doesn't fit your narrative. The problem here is Suarez, not Messi who was Barca's best performing player in every competition. In CL the second top scorer was own goal ffs.

Messi had a shit match against Roma but he's not a robot and all the players have bad matches just like Ronaldo who disappeared for 4 months and was shit against Bayern and Liverpool. The reason why Barca can't win the CL is that we concede 3 or 4 goals in every away match we play.

I'm the first to criticize Messi's lack of movement but selling him is an absurd idea.

 

[messi2140]

I do not propose that we sell Messi. However we have had four managers since Pep and only one managed to make Messi play in a way that he would not be counter-productive for the fluidity of overall gameplay, and that was Lucho making Messi stick on the right wing for only a year. When Messi has an off day, which is happening more often as time goes by, we really are toothless. Barca looked more fluid without Messi because the players were not forced to pass it to him every single time because of some mental block. It is easy to blame the manager, which is the right thing to do atm because EV is terrible, but players should take responsibility too, and Messi has to step up in CL quarters and maybe tell the players "stop passing me the ball every goddamn time" or something. He is the captain now.

Lets purposefully ignore Tito. He was a goalscoring machine under him and if not for Messi's injury and Tito illness that season could've turned differently.

This team has alot of issues and Messi is the least of them, to propose we sell him and someone mentioning him not being a top3 is pathetic.

 

[te amo barca]

Lets purposefully ignore Tito. He was a goalscoring machine under him and if not for Messi's injury and Tito illness that season could've turned differently.

This team has alot of issues and Messi is the least of them, to propose we sell him and someone mentioning him not being a top3 is pathetic.

I do not suggest selling him. Just wanted to point out that Messi's place in this team is definitely one of the problems. It is not the only, sole problem, but one of them.

 

[messi2140]

I do not suggest selling him. Just wanted to point out that Messi's place in this team is definitely one of the problems. It is not the only, sole problem, but one of them.

He js the least of our problems not one of them. A proper manager with authority would have already benched Suarez and that would solve one of the big problems.

 

[Pedro]

Ye're all crazy. Sell him and the team are far worse. You'll have less goals and less chances created and less trophies

FC Barcelona have won CL titles and La liga's before Messi and will do so after him too. We need to build for the future.

 

[te amo barca]

He js the least of our problems not one of them. A proper manager with authority would have already benched Suarez and that would solve one of the big problems.

Yes. a 4-3-3 with Messi as a false 9 is the best option atm.