11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

[serghei]

Really weird to downplay Messi's importance, of all players. Funny thing is all the players you mentioned would also disagree with you.

Edit: just saw you think Barça would have the same success with Alexis, instead of Messi, lol. That's really hilarious.

What? Downplay Messi's importance? I already said and I quote "Messi turned a brilliant team into a legendary one". That means I've just said Messi has made Barcelona more than just the best team in the world. He's made Barcelona arguably the best team ever. How is that downplaying Messi's importance?

That being said, I think without Messi, Barcelona would have still been the best team in the world during Pep's time. The example with Alexis was not given by me btw. Also, Manchester United had 2 shots on target in 180 min. vs Barca in 2009 and 2011 finals (1 freekick in 2009 and an offside goal in 2011). ARSENAL HAD 0 SHOTS in the Camp Nou game, also from 2011. That was all Messi? The insane pressing we did, the way we suffocated every opponent, that was Messi alone? Please. I know this place is loaded with Messi fanboys, but still, Messi was a wheel in the machine, not the guy that made the machine work. Judging by way of Messi-fanboy logic, Iniesta won the 2009 CL and 2010 WC on his own, because without his goals vs Chelsea and Holland, bye bye titles. Messi won nothing on his own. NOTHING. Barcelona was the best team in the world during Ronaldinho's time as well btw (making a Liga - CL double), some fans probably forgot that. Barcelona was the best WITH Messi, not BECAUSE of Messi. I hope I'm clear on this matter. That's not downplaying Messi's importance, is recognizing the club is much more than just Messi.

This Messi-fanboy logic also works the other way btw: without Messi in 2012 missing the penalty vs Chelsea, we would have probably won the CL that year. Of course, it's not fair to say this, but it's also not fair to say Messi has won things on his own.

 

[barcafan161]

I think this ends just like the whole ramos deal worked out..he got the bigger deal due to united

 

[footyfan]

What? Downplay Messi's importance? I already said and I quote "Messi made a brilliant team a legendary one". That means I've just said Messi has made Barcelona more than just the best team in the world. He's made Barcelona arguably the best team ever. How is that downplaying Messi's importance.

That being said, I think without Messi, Barcelona would have still been the best team in the world during Pep's time. The example with Alexis was not given by me btw. Also, Manchester United had 2 shots on target in 180 min. vs Barca in 2009 and 2011 finals (1 freekick in 2009 and an offside goal in 2011). ARSENAL HAD 0 SHOTS in the Camp Nou game, also from 2011. That was all Messi? The insane pressing we did, the way we suffocated every opponent, that was Messi alone? Please. I know this place is loaded with Messi fanboys, but still, Messi was a wheel in the machine, not the guy that made the machine work. Judging by way of Messi-fanboy logic, Iniesta won the 2009 CL and 2010 WC on his own, because without his goals vs Chelsea and Holland, bye bye titles. Messi won nothing on his own. NOTHING. Barcelona was the best team in the world during Ronaldinho's time as well btw (making a Liga - CL double), some fans probably forgot that. Barcelona was the best WITH Messi, not BECAUSE of Messi. I hope I'm clear on this matter. That's not downplaying Messi's importance, is recognizing the club is much more than just Messi.

This Messi-fanboy logic also works the other way btw: without Messi in 2012 missing the penalty vs Chelsea, we would have probably won the CL that year.

You said that Barca would have easily made the treble without Messi.

Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Yaya Toure, Henry, Eto'o, Puyol etc. could have easily made the treble without Messi as well, because they are world class players and hall of famers on their own merit.

Please, that's just a ludicrous opinion to hold. Name me one season (besides maybe 08/09) where Barca could have won the Liga without Messi. Let alone the Liga, Champions League and Copa at the same time.

 

[BBZ8800]

That being said, I think without Messi, Barcelona would have still been the best team in the world during Pep's time. The example with Alexis was not given by me btw. Also, Manchester United had 2 shots on target in 180 min.

Again:
= if Messi didn't exist, yes, Barca without Messi would be awesome in Pep's era
But:
= if Messi played for Real or Bayern from the age 16 till now, we wouldn't talk about Pep, and Barca's golden era today.

If Real/Bayern would have won 4-5 CL titles with Messi in the last 10 years, nobody would talk about Barca (without Messi) or about our sextuple. There wouldn't be sextuple, of course, if Messi played against us, lol.
Nobody talks about second best teams.

We would won 1 CL title from 2006 till today somehow, while Messi's team (Real/Bayern) would terrorize the opponents and they would be hailed as the best team of the decade.

What does that say about Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol and others?
= they are awesome. But Schweinsteiger, Kroos and others are also awesome.

But a team Xavi+Iniesta or Schweini+Kroos who gets Messi to their club, suddenly becomes the best midfield ever.

 

[serghei]

You said that Barca would have easily made the treble without Messi.



Please, that's just a ludicrous opinion to hold. Name me one season (besides maybe 08/09) where Barca could have won the Liga without Messi. Let alone the Liga, Champions League and Copa at the same time.

Not easily. But yes. During Pep's time, Barcelona could have made the treble without him. Bayern did it without Messi. Proof is already there that teams can win trebles (see Inter), without Messi. And don't even compare that Inter 2010 team with a non-Messi Barca. Non-Messi (with another world class player instead) 2011 Barcelona is better than both that treble-winning Bayern and Inter. So, precedent is there. Believe it or don't. I don't care.

Again:
= if Messi didn't exist, yes, Barca without Messi would be awesome in Pep's era
But:
= if Messi played for Real or Bayern from the age 16 till now, we wouldn't talk about Pep, and Barca's golden era today.

With that I'd agree, because it wouldn't mean just a drop in our team, but a massive advantage for our rivals.

 

[Sumlit]

What? Downplay Messi's importance? I already said and I quote "Messi turned a brilliant team into a legendary one". That means I've just said Messi has made Barcelona more than just the best team in the world. He's made Barcelona arguably the best team ever. How is that downplaying Messi's importance?

That being said, I think without Messi, Barcelona would have still been the best team in the world during Pep's time. The example with Alexis was not given by me btw. Also, Manchester United had 2 shots on target in 180 min. vs Barca in 2009 and 2011 finals (1 freekick in 2009 and an offside goal in 2011). ARSENAL HAD 0 SHOTS in the Camp Nou game, also from 2011. That was all Messi? The insane pressing we did, the way we suffocated every opponent, that was Messi alone? Please. I know this place is loaded with Messi fanboys, but still, Messi was a wheel in the machine, not the guy that made the machine work. Judging by way of Messi-fanboy logic, Iniesta won the 2009 CL and 2010 WC on his own, because without his goals vs Chelsea and Holland, bye bye titles. Messi won nothing on his own. NOTHING. Barcelona was the best team in the world during Ronaldinho's time as well btw (making a Liga - CL double), some fans probably forgot that. Barcelona was the best WITH Messi, not BECAUSE of Messi. I hope I'm clear on this matter. That's not downplaying Messi's importance, is recognizing the club is much more than just Messi.

This Messi-fanboy logic also works the other way btw: without Messi in 2012 missing the penalty vs Chelsea, we would have probably won the CL that year. Of course, it's not fair to say this, but it's also not fair to say Messi has won things on his own.

You say you're not downplaying Messi's importance, then proceed to..... downplay Messi's importance.

I think you best drop this subject Serghei, you're quite off the mark here and calling people "Messi fanboys" for disagreeing with you is not doing you any favors.

 

[serghei]

You say you're not downplaying Messi's importance, then proceed to..... downplay Messi's importance.

I think you best drop this subject Serghei, you're quite off the mark here and calling people "Messi fanboys" for disagreeing with you is not doing you any favors.

If by Messi's importance you mean he won those titles almost by himself, yes I am. A players is important in relation to the role he has in the team. Some extend that role way too much. I don't know if you noticed, probably not, but Messi is not even a factor in getting the ball back (or rarely is). So, of course, some parts of our game (important parts actually, parts that contributed to our success) are not even that related to Messi. Again this is not something I would expect from Messi's fans to understand or even less admit.

Thank you for your kind advice, but I won't drop any subject as long as I come with arguments to back it up. As I did with countering the idea that teams can't win trebles without Messi, when in fact, a vastly inferiour team already did.

 

[zanela]

Teams without Messi don't win the sextuple tho.

 

[JamDav1982]

Teams without Messi don't win the sextuple tho.

Messi without the correct team around him doesnt the sextuple either.

Hypothetical question but .... would the team be stronger with Messi/Munir/Sandro front line or Neymar/Suarez/Sandro?

In my opinion Messi is greatest player that ever lived but I would fancy the Neymar/Suarez/Sandro front line more in a big game than I would the other one.

Long winded way of saying as good as Messi is he cant do things on his own and the rest of them team as a whole bring more to the table the Messi does as an individual.

 

[Stric]

Hypothetical question but .... would the team be stronger with Messi/Munir/Sandro front line or Neymar/Suarez/Sandro?

Messi/Munir/Sandro, easily. Having Messi on the team is so much more than having a great forward.

Real have Cristiano, Benzema, James and Bale and they still struggle to win trophies. Barca won trophies with Messi and Iniesta/Fabregas/Pedro/Alexis/injured-Villa/Tello/Cuenca on the wings.

 

[Flavia]

What? Downplay Messi's importance? I already said and I quote "Messi turned a brilliant team into a legendary one". That means I've just said Messi has made Barcelona more than just the best team in the world. He's made Barcelona arguably the best team ever. How is that downplaying Messi's importance?

That being said, I think without Messi, Barcelona would have still been the best team in the world during Pep's time. The example with Alexis was not given by me btw. Also, Manchester United had 2 shots on target in 180 min. vs Barca in 2009 and 2011 finals (1 freekick in 2009 and an offside goal in 2011). ARSENAL HAD 0 SHOTS in the Camp Nou game, also from 2011. That was all Messi? The insane pressing we did, the way we suffocated every opponent, that was Messi alone? Please. I know this place is loaded with Messi fanboys, but still, Messi was a wheel in the machine, not the guy that made the machine work. Judging by way of Messi-fanboy logic, Iniesta won the 2009 CL and 2010 WC on his own, because without his goals vs Chelsea and Holland, bye bye titles. Messi won nothing on his own. NOTHING. Barcelona was the best team in the world during Ronaldinho's time as well btw (making a Liga - CL double), some fans probably forgot that. Barcelona was the best WITH Messi, not BECAUSE of Messi. I hope I'm clear on this matter. That's not downplaying Messi's importance, is recognizing the club is much more than just Messi.

This Messi-fanboy logic also works the other way btw: without Messi in 2012 missing the penalty vs Chelsea, we would have probably won the CL that year. Of course, it's not fair to say this, but it's also not fair to say Messi has won things on his own.

It's very funny you use pejoratively the term "Messi fanboy", when you're an Alexis fanboy

Messi was the pillar of all that you said. Pep's Barça struggled whenever he was injured. You should just remember Spain won the 2010 wc winning almost all games by the score of a whooping 1-0. I'd really like to see that working in the CL, or even la liga. And as I said, a Messi-less Barça would still be a very good team, but you do underestimate Messi's overall impact.

 

[Sumlit]

If by Messi's importance you mean he won those titles almost by himself, yes I am. A players is important in relation to the role he has in the team. Some extend that role way too much. I don't know if you noticed, probably not, but Messi is not even a factor in getting the ball back (or rarely is). So, of course, some parts of our game (important parts actually, parts that contributed to our success) are not even that related to Messi. Again this is not something I would expect from Messi's fans to understand or even less admit.

Thank you for your kind advice, but I won't drop any subject as long as I come with arguments to back it up. As I did with countering the idea that teams can't win trebles without Messi, when in fact, a vastly inferiour team already did.

So far you've agreed a player like Alexis could have won just as much in Messi's stead; That he's just a wheel in the machine, not the one that made the machine work; That he won nothing on his own; Contradicted yourself by saying Messi made the team legendary from brilliant, and then said Barcelona won with Messi, not because of him. This about arguably the greatest player to ever play football. So forgive me if I don't buy your assertions that you're not trying to downplay Messi, and that you're coming with arguments to back up the subject.

And once again, calling people that disagree with your premise Messi fanboys, a premise that by the way would be widely and overwhelmingly disagreed with almost everywhere, is absolutely not helping your cause.

 

[JamDav1982]

Messi/Munir/Sandro, easily. Having Messi on the team is so much more than having a great forward.

Real have Cristiano, Benzema, James and Bale and they still struggle to win trophies. Barca won trophies with Messi and Iniesta/Fabregas/Pedro/Alexis/injured-Villa/Tello/Cuenca on the wings.

Well I disagree and think the Neymar/Suarez/Sandro front line offers more.

Real winning trophies vs Barca is not all down to Messi or the front line anyway.

Barca have had the greatest midfield ever in that time and Neymar/Suarez are greater than anything Real have had going forward bar Ronaldo.

 

[Sumlit]

Messi without the correct team around him doesnt the sextuple either.

Hypothetical question but .... would the team be stronger with Messi/Munir/Sandro front line or Neymar/Suarez/Sandro?

In my opinion Messi is greatest player that ever lived but I would fancy the Neymar/Suarez/Sandro front line more in a big game than I would the other one.

Long winded way of saying as good as Messi is he cant do things on his own and the rest of them team as a whole bring more to the table the Messi does as an individual.

Well you're taking 2 world class attackers and replacing them with unproven youth players, that's hardly a fair question.

Your last sentence is not the issue though, I think everyone can agree Messi by himself cannot win everything, nor any other footballer has or will, the issue being discussed here is the impact Messi has had on the team, the level that impact has contributed to it's success vs the impact someone else would have had in his stead.

 

[Stric]

Right now Barca needs Messi's midfield influence more than ever. I would rather lose Neymar and Suarez than lose everything Messi offers, which is a lot.