Wow. Way to discredit a players performance. Guess a huuuge amount of Messis and Suarezs goals and performances should count for nothing because they came against weak opponents. Also Messi was shit during Copa America. His goals and assists matters 0 because they came against shit teams. When it mattered the most he failed miserably.
- Status
Wow. Way to discredit a players performance. Guess a huuuge amount of Messis and Suarezs goals and performances should count for nothing because they came against weak opponents. Also Messi was shit during Copa America. His goals and assists matters 0 because they came against shit teams. When it mattered the most he failed miserably.
Trickykid
Active member
Trying to adress all of your points on my phone gives me a headache, so I'll make it short.
Your main gripe with Ney is his professionalism (or lack of, in your eyes). Thing is, have we even heard of any trouble related to training and sheer dedication? No, not as far as I know. Messi is an introvert and likes to spend his free time away from the limelight. Suarez is a dedicated family man and seems to value that higher than anything else. Nerman then? Well he has other ways of recharging his batteries. And that's the thing, people relax in various environments - footballers are no different. IF his traveling ever interferes with his profession as a sportsman, I'm sure Lucho would put his foot down. So far he hasn't done so, and to me, that's an indication that it's not a problem. I also doubt he'd be that popular in the squad, if he didn't pull his weight in training.
I don't get your comparison to Messi at all. In general making comparisons to him is silly at best, because he's the best of all time. I don't see many claiming that Ney will surpass him? And if they do, there's hardly any point in arguing with them. If your sole point with Messi is to illustrate that some players doesn't get better past their 24th birthday, well, then you have to do better. I gave you a good handful of players who all got better with time, and I'm sure you can do better than just one?
Let's also not forget that the problem some people have with Neymar on the field, is that he makes the wrong decision too often (a valid point too). Well, if there's one thing that should get better with age, it's his footballing brain. So even if he stagnates from a physical viewpoint, he could easily improve mentally.
In short; I still don't buy your opinion that he has already peaked, just as I don't buy your opinion that his head is not in it.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
I think that our fans need a new Messi, or at least a new key leader, and they are now creating a myth out of Neymar.
He is good, but people act as if he offers 3x times more than he actually does.
1. I have a problem with how much money we paid for him.
The most expensive transfer in a history when you add all penalties and shady deals.
I don't think that he is worth that much. Aka, he cost 2-3 times more than some 40-50m winger, and I don't think that he delivers 2-3 times better results than a 50m worth winger. (Or, he is worth 5-10x times more than Nolito. And I am not sure how much at all would Nolito play weaker than him over 12 Months, when you sum all pros and cons, goals, assists and horrible matches over 12 Months)
2. professionalism in terms like his personality+professionalism.
That means that his passion for celebrity lifestyle plus his love for social networks are ruining his concentration towards football.
And this is why he is distracted and why he plays so hot and cold.
Also, imo, he gets complacent too easily, like after 2 Months of a good form, he loses concentration.
Then people start to whine about his performances.
And then after some time, he recharges his mental batteries.
Then he plays good again for 2-3 Months.
But then he gets complacent again after some good matches.
Then his Fabregasesque era repeats. And he has these cycles over and over all the time, imo.
3. plus, I have some sort of a problem about this myth about Neymar on this forum, like:
He is so young, he will improve=That's questionable. He will be 25 in the middle of next season.
He is insanely good when on form=but you see, he is on form usually for only 2-3 Months. Plus, when you check his best on-form eras, in 2015 he was good in a CL and horrible in La liga (spring 2015) and in his 2nd goat spell, he was good for 2 Months, but when you check those matches, he was a goat against Rayo, Getafe and Bate Borisov. (Ok, he did have 2 tougher opponents also)
So, even his best 2 periods at Barca raise some huge question marks. (Like: was he really that good? And was he that good and that consistent even in those 3 Months of best form?)
The more I read this forum and other internet forums, these are 3 things which are the most important for majority of our (forum) fans:
1. we need to find a player who will be our idol (Messi currently)
2. we need to find a player who will be our idol, but who is also young (good+young), so that we can create some "illusion" of a long term love, an illusion/hope of a bright future or some sort of a long-term investment/connection/whatever
(Imo, Ney vs Suarez comes here. Imo, Suarez is a better player. More passion, more consistent, delivers all the time. But Ney is getting way bigger hype and love. Why? Imo, because Suarez is older. Ney is a perfect fit for this theory from above. He is good, he is young, he can stay here for years. A perfect player to build an illusion or a myth around him for majority of our fans.
Also, if we would buy a 30 year old guy now who would play better than Messi and Neymar, people wouldn't "take" him seriously.
We would love him, but not as much as Neymar or some younger guy.
Because the older guy will be here and "offer good times" only for 2-3 years probably.
And you see, people are craving for long-term idols/relationships/investments.
And when they get a player who looks somewhat close to these conditions, then: BAAANG! We get hype, delusional love and cult following, level 20 000.)
3. and a 3rd point is a hate towards our biggest opponent (CR7/RM) and hating, exaggerating and bashing more or less everything he/them do
So, in short:
1. love our team
2. hate our opponents to insane levels
3. give too much credit/love to younger+good players to create some illusion/hope of a bright/awesome future
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Trickykid
Active member
1. I'm sure everyone in here has a problem with the whole Ney deal, but he's here now and that's all that matters. I'm sure you (even though you'll deny it) know that there is so much more to transfers than simply fee/skill, meaning it's pointless to compare a 100m Ney to a 50m random great winger and expect the Brazilian to perform exactly twice as well - reality just doesn't work like that. But hey, if you really, deep down believe that someone like Nolito could replicate Neymar's performance for Barcelona, then we really need to end this discussion asap anyhow...
...you know I can't, though, so I'll get on with number 2:
Again, you can't simply claim as a fact that his lifestyle (including his sporadic use of social media (are you even serious here?)) ruins his concentration on football and makes him play irregularly. It's just baseless guesswork on your part.
3. Uh...what?
I
instinct
Guest
It's not even an opinion. Opinions are based on facts and what he does is assuming things without having any factual basis whatsoever.
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] Do you have any analogies or statistics to prove that Neymar has already peaked? What makes you so sure that he won't improve in the coming years? An answer that consists of ''imo, I believe he's already peaked'' won't suffice. At least give us some actual facts to back your claim.
Also, I find it quite amusing how much you contradict yourself. Let's sum up your problems with Neymar.
1.) He consistently underperforms in several matches during the second half of the season
2.) His lifestyle is way more important to him than his performances on the pitch
3.) His father is a greedy idiot who's milking the club
4.) he cost way too much
That's 4 solid reasons to go on daily rants against Neymar. It shouldn't surprise since you did the exact same thing with Pogba last season. Since you've been in favor of signing Pogba for quite some time, I'm assuming that you don't see any problems with him.
1.) You spent a considerable amount of time finding people in Juventus forums who were bashing Pogba's bad performances in the second half of last season. You posted videos, gifs and quotes to prove that he was nothing special and made a lot of mistakes. Yet, you're not worried about the possibility of him underperforming for Barca.
2.) Pogba is just as flashy and extravagant as Neymar. He likes to show off on social media, there are several photos of him going to parties and his fashion taste is fairly similar to Neymar's.
Just imo, I think his lifestyle is responsible for his bad performances too, but again, just imo....
3.) Raiola. Nuff said.
4.) I'm pretty sure that you're perfectly aware of Pogba's price tag which is going to be well over 100m once he decides to leave. It could be a little more than Neymar cost us or a little less but it'd be close either way.
In short:
1.) You want to sign Pogba despite him having the same negative aspects as Neymar.
2.) Your opinion is not an opinion at all bur rather baseless assumptions that suit your narrative.
Just imo.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
[MENTION=15455]instinct[/MENTION]
Well, you have a thing called average age of player's peak.
Those numbers may indicate when a majority of players will be on their peak.
But those numbers will never be able to say: a player XX will be the same as all others.
So, I could post some analysis which show when majority of players peak.
I can't post data which will prove when Neymar will peak, lol.
But when you do take some statistical data and then when you look at a concrete player and analyze some of his stats and patterns, you can come very close in these estimations.
About this Pogba part, in debating in general (not only on internet), when someone starts to throw some facts, mistakes or opinions from other, unrelated topics into a current debate (Pogba, my opinion about Pogba or how I changed my opinion about Pogba) is usually considered that a person lacks good answers for a current debate so he is jumping to other random things in order to to strengthen your claims or to prove how I was wrong back then, and thus how I am probably "wrong" even now, lol (to show how an opponent in debate usually makes wrong estimations or similar).
So, we can discuss Neymar, his peak, his hot and cold performances etc.
But I don't see a point of throwing random topics into this
Just imo, the same as you said, mate.
About the current topic, Neymar and player's physical peak, here are some stats from a lot of pages around the world:
-- sample 11 200:
http://www.wired.com/2011/07/athletes-peak-age/
"The careers of more than 1,150 swimmers and track-and-field athletes, as well as the accomplishments of nearly a hundred chess grandmasters, were scrutinized based on the event they were participating in, as well as their age and how old they were when they established any world records. In all, more than 11,200 performances among these athletes made it into the data set, and the results confirm that there reaches an age — a physiological tipping point, if you will — when athletes start to experience an irreversible downturn in their abilities.
Generally speaking, athletes start to see physical declines at age 26, give or take. (This would seem in line with the long-standing notion in baseball that players tend to hit their peak anywhere from ages 27 to 30.) For swimmers, the news is more sobering, as the mean peak age is 21. For chess grandmasters, participating in an activity that relies more than mental acuity and sharpness rather than brute, acquired physicality, the peak age is closer to 31.4.
For setting world records in a given athletic discipline, the mean age is 26.1, so all you sports-minded thirty-somethings hoping to still see your name published in the Guinness Book may have already missed your mark."
++ http://greatist.com/fitness/over-hill-have-you-passed-peak-performance
Taking a closer look, the impact of aging on performance rears its ugly head in most every sport by compromising endurance, motor function, muscular strength, and balance. So it should come as no surprise that more than 65 percent of U.S. Olympians are in their 20s. The same is true of professional athletes. Studies show that at age 24, a professional football player relying on strength will be peaking at the same time as a 24-year-old tennis player known for her foot speed . Only four years later will a star baseball player and an elite long-distance runner top out at about 28 years of age. Of course, performance declines vary slightly among sports and the sexes, but on average women tend to hit their performance ceiling before their male counterparts .
++ http://www.axonpotential.com/athletes-and-age-of-peak-performance/
The consistency of this rise-peak-decline pattern is striking, even across very different sports. For nearly every major sport, the age of peak performance is in the range of 22-30, and some interesting trends emerge when you look at sport type in relation to an athlete’s peak age. The age at which performance tends to peak across sports seems to mirror the continuum from purely explosive, athletic sports to slower, more skill-based sports, with explosive sports peaking earlier. Further, even within sports that combine different abilities, explosive abilities (e.g. base stealing in baseball) tend to peak earlier than more cognitive, skill-based abilities (e.g. drawing walks in baseball).
* For baseball, a number of studies, using different methods, have pegged peak age between 27-29.
* For Tennis, peak age has been pegged between the early 20′s and 25.
* For basketball, peak age has been found to be at 27 for all positions, with different positions showing different patterns of decline.
* For Track and Field, peak sprinting age has been found to be in the lower-mid twenties, with endurance events having older peak ages.
* For golf, athletes have broader peaks–between 25-35, with slower declines.
* For football, running backs and receivers peak around 27, with running backs showing sharper fall-offs than receivers. Quarterbacks have a broader peak between 25-35.
++ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26088954
For both sexes, linear trends reasonably approximated the relationships between event duration and estimates of age of peak performance for explosive power/sprint events and for endurance events. In explosive power/sprint events, estimates decreased with increasing event duration, ranging from ~27 years (athletics throws, ~1-5 s) to ~20 years (swimming, ~21-245 s). Conversely, estimates for endurance events increased with increasing event duration, ranging from ~20 years (swimming, ~2-15 min) to ~39 years (ultra-distance cycling, ~27-29 h). There was little difference in estimates of peak age for these event types between men and women. Estimations of the age of peak performance for athletes specialising in specific events and of event durations that may best suit talent identification of athletes can be obtained from the equations of the linear trends. There were insufficient data to investigate trends for mixed/skill events.
CONCLUSION: Differences in the attributes required for success in different sporting events likely contribute to the wide range of peak-performance ages of elite athletes. Understanding the relationships between age of peak competitive performance and event duration should be useful for tracking athlete progression and talent identification.
Enjoy and don't drag Pogba and random stuff into this.
Well, you have a thing called average age of player's peak.
Those numbers may indicate when a majority of players will be on their peak.
But those numbers will never be able to say: a player XX will be the same as all others.
So, I could post some analysis which show when majority of players peak.
I can't post data which will prove when Neymar will peak, lol.
But when you do take some statistical data and then when you look at a concrete player and analyze some of his stats and patterns, you can come very close in these estimations.
About this Pogba part, in debating in general (not only on internet), when someone starts to throw some facts, mistakes or opinions from other, unrelated topics into a current debate (Pogba, my opinion about Pogba or how I changed my opinion about Pogba) is usually considered that a person lacks good answers for a current debate so he is jumping to other random things in order to to strengthen your claims or to prove how I was wrong back then, and thus how I am probably "wrong" even now, lol (to show how an opponent in debate usually makes wrong estimations or similar).
So, we can discuss Neymar, his peak, his hot and cold performances etc.
But I don't see a point of throwing random topics into this
Just imo, the same as you said, mate.
About the current topic, Neymar and player's physical peak, here are some stats from a lot of pages around the world:
-- sample 11 200:
http://www.wired.com/2011/07/athletes-peak-age/
"The careers of more than 1,150 swimmers and track-and-field athletes, as well as the accomplishments of nearly a hundred chess grandmasters, were scrutinized based on the event they were participating in, as well as their age and how old they were when they established any world records. In all, more than 11,200 performances among these athletes made it into the data set, and the results confirm that there reaches an age — a physiological tipping point, if you will — when athletes start to experience an irreversible downturn in their abilities.
Generally speaking, athletes start to see physical declines at age 26, give or take. (This would seem in line with the long-standing notion in baseball that players tend to hit their peak anywhere from ages 27 to 30.) For swimmers, the news is more sobering, as the mean peak age is 21. For chess grandmasters, participating in an activity that relies more than mental acuity and sharpness rather than brute, acquired physicality, the peak age is closer to 31.4.
For setting world records in a given athletic discipline, the mean age is 26.1, so all you sports-minded thirty-somethings hoping to still see your name published in the Guinness Book may have already missed your mark."
++ http://greatist.com/fitness/over-hill-have-you-passed-peak-performance
Taking a closer look, the impact of aging on performance rears its ugly head in most every sport by compromising endurance, motor function, muscular strength, and balance. So it should come as no surprise that more than 65 percent of U.S. Olympians are in their 20s. The same is true of professional athletes. Studies show that at age 24, a professional football player relying on strength will be peaking at the same time as a 24-year-old tennis player known for her foot speed . Only four years later will a star baseball player and an elite long-distance runner top out at about 28 years of age. Of course, performance declines vary slightly among sports and the sexes, but on average women tend to hit their performance ceiling before their male counterparts .
++ http://www.axonpotential.com/athletes-and-age-of-peak-performance/
The consistency of this rise-peak-decline pattern is striking, even across very different sports. For nearly every major sport, the age of peak performance is in the range of 22-30, and some interesting trends emerge when you look at sport type in relation to an athlete’s peak age. The age at which performance tends to peak across sports seems to mirror the continuum from purely explosive, athletic sports to slower, more skill-based sports, with explosive sports peaking earlier. Further, even within sports that combine different abilities, explosive abilities (e.g. base stealing in baseball) tend to peak earlier than more cognitive, skill-based abilities (e.g. drawing walks in baseball).
* For baseball, a number of studies, using different methods, have pegged peak age between 27-29.
* For Tennis, peak age has been pegged between the early 20′s and 25.
* For basketball, peak age has been found to be at 27 for all positions, with different positions showing different patterns of decline.
* For Track and Field, peak sprinting age has been found to be in the lower-mid twenties, with endurance events having older peak ages.
* For golf, athletes have broader peaks–between 25-35, with slower declines.
* For football, running backs and receivers peak around 27, with running backs showing sharper fall-offs than receivers. Quarterbacks have a broader peak between 25-35.
++ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26088954
For both sexes, linear trends reasonably approximated the relationships between event duration and estimates of age of peak performance for explosive power/sprint events and for endurance events. In explosive power/sprint events, estimates decreased with increasing event duration, ranging from ~27 years (athletics throws, ~1-5 s) to ~20 years (swimming, ~21-245 s). Conversely, estimates for endurance events increased with increasing event duration, ranging from ~20 years (swimming, ~2-15 min) to ~39 years (ultra-distance cycling, ~27-29 h). There was little difference in estimates of peak age for these event types between men and women. Estimations of the age of peak performance for athletes specialising in specific events and of event durations that may best suit talent identification of athletes can be obtained from the equations of the linear trends. There were insufficient data to investigate trends for mixed/skill events.
CONCLUSION: Differences in the attributes required for success in different sporting events likely contribute to the wide range of peak-performance ages of elite athletes. Understanding the relationships between age of peak competitive performance and event duration should be useful for tracking athlete progression and talent identification.
Enjoy and don't drag Pogba and random stuff into this.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Tricky, debating with you lately feels like:
BBZ: There are some indications that Ney has already peaked in his physical abilities
Tricky: You can't know that
(Of course that you can't know that for 100% lol)
BBZ: I think that his lifestyle and is ruining his concentration for football and it may be a reason why he is playing hot and cold.
Tricky: You can't know that
Well, awesome answers, mate.
Of course that you can't predict anything with a 100% certainty until it actually happens.
But you can analyze and predict some things using your IQ, stats for similar sportsmen, some of your personal experience in sports/development/prediction.
You don't need to give Rafinha 10 years in a first team to actually assess his abilities.
Yeah, the less a player plays (a smaller sample of matches and a lower amount of years playing), there is a bigger room for a mistake in assessing his abilities.
But on the other hand, if you have Neymar here for 3 full years, with 100+ matches and if you have his history from Brasil, Brasilian NT etc, you already have a decent amount of data to assess his motivation towards football, to assess his tendency to play hot and cold (and to accept that those probably weren't a one time thing but a part of his personality), his rising interest towards celebrity lifestyle etc.
So, when you sum everything (Ney, samples from his life, similar players, peaking age etc), I am still pretty sure that with Ney very likely we will either get "only" the current Neymar (without too much improvement), or also likely, that the things will start to go down in 1-2 years both because of his peaking physical age and off-field distractions.
For the end, do you want to make a bet about majority which I have written here about Ney?
We will surely go back to this topic as long as he is here, and you can drag my name in the mud, or laugh how much you want, if I was wrong.
But again, here is my offer: July 2016. Mark this post and let's come back to it in 6 Months, 12 Months, 24 Months, 36 Months.
1. let's see whether I was right
2. whether you were right
3. and whether you can assess somewhat accurately player's future development if you take a lot of things mentioned (age, peak, personality, mental strength, motivation, his expected technical ceiling, his patterns in the past, 100-200-300 matches already played) here in those calculations.
TornAndFrayed
Banned
My only problem with neymar & co is that they're the greediest motherfucking people on earth. All other arguments against him are amplified by this, i think.
TornAndFrayed
Banned
that tax lasted one year, has been dead a year and a half, was paid by companies and applied to any additional salary after 1 million.
Like so : 4m salary = 1m at 50% +3M at 75% = 2,75M in taxes.
On the whole the tax raised a grand 210 millions, which is nothing. It was a publicity stunt that worked very well, apparently.
F
Flavia
Guest
Coming from marca, it's probably bs to try to stirr shit among our players.
Mitchell1978
Senior Member
Intresting post, a while back i had a look at the ages of ballon d'or winners, the average age was just under 27 which seems in line with your post.
LordLichtenstein
New member
2013-14: 15 goals & 11 assists = 26
2014-15: 39 goals & 07 assists = 46
2015-16: 31 goals & 20 assists = 51
He is improving.
2014-15: 39 goals & 07 assists = 46
2015-16: 31 goals & 20 assists = 51
He is improving.
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