11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[BBZ8800]

I don't understand why Suarez starts crying for the ball every time Dembele is in possession. No matter how far from each other they may be or how unfeasible a pass between the two is, Suarez starts throwing his hands up in the air and screaming for the ball immediately after Dembele gets it. Then if Dembele either fails with his pass to Suarez or loses possession you can see Suarez visibly sulking and showing his frustration. I've never seen him behave like this with another teammate, it's like either Dembele has to find him with a perfect pass every time or he commences a mini tantrum of sorts.

Players are spending tons of time on training grounds and on training grounds matches.
Messi, Suarez and EV know a lot more about Dembele, Semedo and others than we do.

If Suarez is mad at Dembele (and no one else) and they played together only for 400 minutes in matches till now, then imo, there are only 2 options:
1. Suarez is just crazy and he is hating on a kid for no reason
2. or Dembele is doing too many dribbles or bad decisions in matches on training grounds and Suarez has lost patience with him, or something similar to that

This is no way to treat a young player who has yet to establish himself in the team, all it does it put added, unnecessary pressure on him.

Just a theory: what if Suarez has already said to Dembele (on training grounds) NOT to do those things for 100 times.
But Dembele either doesn't listen him, or he is listening but he is a slow learner.
Or he can't listen to him because that is his style of play and he can't change it.

Ok, I am one of those who don't believe in Dembele's success here.
But, look at it this way:
1. when EV doesn't play Dembele, we are assuming that EV is blind, dumb and without courage
2. when Luis is yelling at Dembele, we are assuming that Luis is an idiot and that he is not offering a support to a young kid

On the other hand, maybe, just, maybe, there is a chance:
1. EV doesn't play Dembele because Dembele is doing too many dribbles or dumb decisions/whatever on training grounds every day
2. Luis is yelling at Dembele because he is tired of his mistakes/decisions/whatever over and over

More like Valverde's. If the manager can't develop top rated talents, then maybe he needs to be replaced. That's a rather big part of the job profile. If he can't develop Dembele, then what are Alena's chances? Slim as hell. So far, Valverde's been pretty shit at giving chances to young players. He's basically putting it all on the old guard while the new talents get minutes here and there.

In his first year, he hasn't developed a single young player. With some, he has done a poor job.

I will sound like the biggest hater out there, but if EV won't develop Dembele, people are assuming that EV is dumb and a bad coach.
EV improved Mats massively.
EV improved Umtiti.

Again, we have no idea what is happening on training grounds.
Dembele might be the dumbest player ever, or a bad professional, or unwilling to listen to a coach (too many dribbles or who knows what).

Remember, in 2003 we bought quite a similar 20 year old winger with extraordinary potential (back then), named Ricardo Quaresma.
He played one season under Rijkaard (Rijkaard's first season) and Quaresma went mad at Barca and a coach for not playing enough during the 1st season.
We sold him in a summer of 2004, in a package of Deco's deal with Porto.

To some extent, people probably said back then: Quaresma needs to play all the time, he is such a talent. If Rijkaard doesn't see it and if he can't develop Quaresma, he needs to be sacked.
But Quaresma was sold, Rijkaard wasn't sacked and he started one of the best eras in our history.

Also, Quaresma was equally as young as Dembele (aged 20).
We didn't wait for him for 2-3-4 seasons, like people say in this topic (Dembele will need a few seasons to develop).
Quaresma also needed time to adapt, to learn, to develop, to improve and to mature as a person.
He also came to a new country and into a new club.

But again, we gave up on him (and in the end it turned out to be a good decision by a coach and a technical staff) after only 1 year, he was sold aged 21.
How is that possible?
= because he was a lost cause, according to our technical staff

I probably sound negative and pessimistic, but older fans have seen several "Quaresmas and Dembeles" in our club over years.
Some of them made it, some of them were shipped soon.
For younger fans, each player like Dembele sounds like the next big thing, someone who is destined to make it big, no matter what.
And there is no way that he won't make it here.
But it is far from that simple.

Here is a video of Quaresma's debut for Barca on USA's tour in a summer of 2003 vs AC Milan.
Milan were a current CL winners in that moment.
Imagine that this is happening today.
Imagine that we bought a young winger with the highest potential in the world, and everyone is calling him the next Figo.
Imagine that he plays this good in his debut.
And then imagine that he will be sold after only 12 Months.
People would call for EV's /Rijkaard's head and would write 1000s of pages how Quaresma is our future and how we need to wait him for 2-3 years until we can judge him.
Again, it is not THAT simple and who knows what is happening on training grounds and what is happening in player's head regarding his IQ, professionalism and similar.

** Quaresma was sold with:
10 starts
11 sub appearances

Imo, people should lower expectations.
Majority of you sound as if he is a 100% a sure thing.
And if he doesn't make it or doesn't play, everyone else is dumb, blind or crazy.

Dembele or any other player making it here, no matter how high his potential is, if faaaaar, faaaaar from 100%.
Some historical stats would probably be closer to a 30%-40% range.

 

[MessiCam]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] and his crazy theories...

Let’s see who makes Valverde’s list of slow dumb players...

Semedo, Denis, Paco, Gomes, Rafinha, Dembélé, Coutinho and Mina.

I’m sorry. With a list like that the players aren’t the problem.

Further, Valverde has admitted to Dembélé’s extreme playing profile just after the Girona game and said that he demands of him and Coutinho to attack. He has also admitted to playing Dembélé against Getafe with the sole purpose of dribbling the defence. When it didn’t quite work out he found himself in the bench for 2 games. He then gets a full game and impresses but is immediately shafted again for fucking Vidal.

Valverde has openely stated that Dembélé is training well and that his playing time depends on his competition performances. So how is he benched for Vidal after putting in the performance?

Valverde is a mediocre coach and no, he doesn’t get credit for MaTS and Umtiti. They were already operating at a very high level. They just went a step further.

By the way, wasn’t it you who said Coutinho walks into this team as the second best player... Because other than the 2 goals Dembélé is putting him to shame in terms of chance creation.

 

[Sekou]

I think people generally have higher expectations for Dembélé because of the astounding season he played for Dortmund last year and, unfortunately, because of the price that we got him for.

Unlike Quaresma, who scored 5 goals in the Portuguese League the season before he joined Barca, Dembélé has shown - and I would place the German League at least on an equal level as the Portuguese League - that he can rack up a relatively high number of assists and goals over the course of a season. He was very consistent. On top of that he also showed up in the big games against Bayern and in the Champions League against teams like Real Madrid.

Even though his decision making in his latest appearances for us was bad (shooting when he should have passed, going for a dribble in impossible situations, attempting a sprint and slipping), he already has a season of high quality football under his belt for a good European side. In Dortmund he didn't give off the impression of a player who is "too stupid" to figure out how to put his talents to use and be compatible with his team and his manager's strategy.

This is why many of us, myself included, still have faith in him. It doesn't mean he is on his way to becoming the next Ballon D'or winner and as BBZ is right to point out his success at Barcelona is anything but guaranteed. Nevertheless, I think we as fans should be so fair to grant him an adaptation period longer than a sporadic set of cameos. Because of the player he has shown to be in Dortmund, because of his youth and his potential to improve and because of the limited time he has seen so far, in addition to two injuries.

At the end of the day, he might not be a fit for Barcelona. But it is too soon to say that he is more likely to not make it than he is to adapt and thrive.

I wish for the latter to happen, for the player and for our team.

 

[serghei]

Players are spending tons of time on training grounds and on training grounds matches.
Messi, Suarez and EV know a lot more about Dembele, Semedo and others than we do.

If Suarez is mad at Dembele (and no one else) and they played together only for 400 minutes in matches till now, then imo, there are only 2 options:
1. Suarez is just crazy and he is hating on a kid for no reason
2. or Dembele is doing too many dribbles or bad decisions in matches on training grounds and Suarez has lost patience with him, or something similar to that



Just a theory: what if Suarez has already said to Dembele (on training grounds) NOT to do those things for 100 times.
But Dembele either doesn't listen him, or he is listening but he is a slow learner.
Or he can't listen to him because that is his style of play and he can't change it.

Ok, I am one of those who don't believe in Dembele's success here.
But, look at it this way:
1. when EV doesn't play Dembele, we are assuming that EV is blind, dumb and without courage
2. when Luis is yelling at Dembele, we are assuming that Luis is an idiot and that he is not offering a support to a young kid

On the other hand, maybe, just, maybe, there is a chance:
1. EV doesn't play Dembele because Dembele is doing too many dribbles or dumb decisions/whatever on training grounds every day
2. Luis is yelling at Dembele because he is tired of his mistakes/decisions/whatever over and over



I will sound like the biggest hater out there, but if EV won't develop Dembele, people are assuming that EV is dumb and a bad coach.
EV improved Mats massively.
EV improved Umtiti.

Again, we have no idea what is happening on training grounds.
Dembele might be the dumbest player ever, or a bad professional, or unwilling to listen to a coach (too many dribbles or who knows what).

Remember, in 2003 we bought quite a similar 20 year old winger with extraordinary potential (back then), named Ricardo Quaresma.
He played one season under Rijkaard (Rijkaard's first season) and Quaresma went mad at Barca and a coach for not playing enough during the 1st season.
We sold him in a summer of 2004, in a package of Deco's deal with Porto.

To some extent, people probably said back then: Quaresma needs to play all the time, he is such a talent. If Rijkaard doesn't see it and if he can't develop Quaresma, he needs to be sacked.
But Quaresma was sold, Rijkaard wasn't sacked and he started one of the best eras in our history.

Also, Quaresma was equally as young as Dembele (aged 20).
We didn't wait for him for 2-3-4 seasons, like people say in this topic (Dembele will need a few seasons to develop).
Quaresma also needed time to adapt, to learn, to develop, to improve and to mature as a person.
He also came to a new country and into a new club.

But again, we gave up on him (and in the end it turned out to be a good decision by a coach and a technical staff) after only 1 year, he was sold aged 21.
How is that possible?
= because he was a lost cause, according to our technical staff

I probably sound negative and pessimistic, but older fans have seen several "Quaresmas and Dembeles" in our club over years.
Some of them made it, some of them were shipped soon.
For younger fans, each player like Dembele sounds like the next big thing, someone who is destined to make it big, no matter what.
And there is no way that he won't make it here.
But it is far from that simple.

Here is a video of Quaresma's debut for Barca on USA's tour in a summer of 2003 vs AC Milan.
Milan were a current CL winners in that moment.
Imagine that this is happening today.
Imagine that we bought a young winger with the highest potential in the world, and everyone is calling him the next Figo.
Imagine that he plays this good in his debut.
And then imagine that he will be sold after only 12 Months.
People would call for EV's /Rijkaard's head and would write 1000s of pages how Quaresma is our future and how we need to wait him for 2-3 years until we can judge him.
Again, it is not THAT simple and who knows what is happening on training grounds and what is happening in player's head regarding his IQ, professionalism and similar.

Imo, people should lower expectations.
Majority of you sound as if he is a 100% a sure thing.
And if he doesn't make it or doesn't play, everyone else is dumb, blind or crazy.

Dembele or any other player making it here, no matter how high his potential is, if faaaaar, faaaaar from 100%.
Some historical stats would probably be closer to a 30%-40% range.

OK. Let's go through this step by step

'Messi, Suarez, EV know a lot more about Dembele than we do from trainings etc.'

Non-argument. Doesn't mean shit. Moyes knew more about the United players than any fan or other manager because he saw them in trainings non-stop. Doesn't mean he wasn't a poor manager, or that he was right in his decisions. Next argument. Lucho was a manager at Barca for 3 seasons, saw Mathieu in trainings every time almost, and he thought Jeremy was going to stop Dybala and Cuadrado as part of a 3 men defense. They flew past him as if he wasn't there and we got trashed.

'Suarez is mad at Dembele, because he must be doind bad things in trainings and such etc.'.

Not even sure it's true, and even if it is, doesn't mean shit. Again. Neymar was mad repeatedly at Jordi Alba in games. Doesn't mean Neymar was right. In the limited time Demebele played from the start he served some straight up perfect assists for Suarez (2 perfectly timed balls in the Espanyol and Girona games). I saw Suarez being delighted both times.

You see, Suarez as the killer striker he is, wants to score goals. And when the other players don't pass the ball to him (other than Messi of course, cause he wont dare to say anything to Messi) he gets grumpy. Suarez is smiling and he's happy when you give him the ball and he scores. He's not happy when you don't. Sometimes it's that simple. The perfect player would choose to shoot and pass at the perfect time in the perfect scenarios. That's not what happens in real football. Even Messi has moments, sometimes several of those in a game, where he doesn't pass the ball to better placed teammates. Doesn't mean anything. It happens and is part of professional football.


'Quaresma this and that...'

What relation there is between Quaresma and Dembele? They're two different players and have two different personalities. Any comparison between them is purely on a superficial level. Quaresma was a proven non-professional. Proven, not theories, as in we've seen him act like and speak like an asshole. Dembele is still having the benefit of the doubt. Didn't see him speaking like an idiot or getting into public conflicts with anyone.

I think you need to understand something. We paid 120m + variables for Dembele, and if we did that it's because we watched him a lot and we've become certain (as much as possible, because you can never be 100% sure) that he has the talent and the skills to make it. He has the tools to make it, because in 1 season he become, from a new kid, the best player in that Dortmund team, having great games not only vs scrubs, but also vs Bayern Munich, and getting the DFB Pokal for his team. So, if a player is strong enough to be that decisive in his first season, in a very physical league like the German one, then he surely has what it takes to make it.

Valverde's decisions are too conservative and too pragmatic, to the point of not being interested at all in a projection based on a couple of years. He's only going by in a game by game basis, using the players that can help him to control a match in his sort of defensive way, not risking too much based on the belief that he has so many quality players up front that he doesn't really need too many chances to score and win a game. That he can keep it tight around Messi and Suarez, occasionaly Iniesta, and those 3 will provide the spark that is needed to win the games. This works up to a point. In the long run, it's just bland football with a very low margin of error. Don't know what to tell you, but most of the time, this Barca plays some of the most boring football I've seen in the last decade.

Btw, Mourinho also saw De Bruyne everyday in trainings. He was so bad that Mourinho sold him to Wolfsburg, and now he's the best midfielder in the world. Surely he was right to do that, because De Bruyne was overrated and had no future in top football. Yea, look how that turned out

Some players take work. Simple as that. Some are so undeniably great, and have such a great personality that they develop on their own based on their will and strenght of character. But some take work and trust. And until you give them that, you can't know for sure if you have a potential great player on your hands, or if this one won't make it. And if you can't be bothered to trust the young talents, then go shopping for players who play for the great clubs already because if they're playing for a Bayern, for a Madrid etc. then they surely have the stuff you're looking for already. And good luck signing those players, because most of the times the clubs invested in them the same thing you're not doing at the moment with your own talents.

Sergio Ramos was a fucking calamity for Madrid back in 2006. But he had talent and that was evident. And look at him now, look at his career.

You didn't like Neymar, you don't like Dembele. Is there any young player you like and think he's destined to be great?

Players with talent who are willing to work hard make it. Sometimes the ones that don't have too much talent, but work hard still make it big. Dembele has the talent, and if he wants to make it he needs to be supported, not asked to pass god knows what imaginary tests in order to get a start away to Las Palmas, no 18th placed team in the league in front of Aleix Vidal.

 

[ATLBarcaFan]

He and Coutinho need to start this weekend, which means Valverde will probably run it Paulinho and Vidal

 

[Maxim4]

Dembélé destroyed André Gomes!

 

[MessiCam]

Dembélé destroyed André Gomes!

Broke his hips... Now watch Gomes get the start!

 

[Maxim4]

Broke his hips... Now watch Gomes get the start!

Lol !

 

[Ken_rosseneri]

I have never hated a coach soo much in my life... Valverde takes the trophy.. his selection makes me uninterested in Barca games... I hope Paulinho n Vidal get injured.. yes I said it.. they aren't offering shit anyways so they might as well be injured...

 

[DonAK]

Suarez is so mad at Dembélé that he put an arm around him at the Girona game and was encouraging him and laughing with him.

Suarez does this shit with everyone because he's ultra competitive and plays like an animal, always on the edge. No even his BFF Messi is immune to that. Pay attention the next time Messi goes for a shot or dribble instead of playing a pass to Suarez and you'll see him frustrated.

He's just such an instinctive player.

 

[MessiCam]

Suarez is so mad at Dembélé that he put an arm around him at the Girona game and was encouraging him and laughing with him.

Suarez does this shit with everyone because he's ultra competitive and plays like an animal, always on the edge. No even his BFF Messi is immune to that. Pay attention the next time Messi goes for a shot or dribble instead of playing a pass to Suarez and you'll see him frustrated.

It’s as simple as that. People calling his IQ into question when ambidexterity is generally associated with near complete brain symmetry.

 

[PhilS]

I hope for the best with Dembele. But all this talk about how Barca would win every single game is just Dembele was always on the field is not rational. He just has not shown enough in the playing time he has gotten. Yes, I would play him in front of Vidal, because I am now convinced that Vidal is the worst player on the team. In the playing time that he is getting, Dembele has to show more. That is the only way he will get the chance to play a lot.

 

[Joan]

People calling his IQ into question when ambidexterity is generally associated with near complete brain symmetry.

Generally, brain symmetry doesn't imply high intelligence.

Just because he's ambidextrous, doesn't mean he's not dumb.

 

[DonAK]

Generally, brain symmetry doesn't imply high intelligence.

Just because he's ambidextrous, doesn't mean he's not dumb.

Just because you're able to open the internet on a laptop, computer or your mobile phone and post a comment on www.barcaforum.com doesn't mean you're not dumb.










See what I did there? Same retarded argument the likes of you are making.

Just curious. What makes him 'dumb'? Seen a lot of this lately, throwing around how he's dumb, but no one willing to give a concise argument or evidence proving he's dumb.

Makes those making these comments dumb actually. Which is funny.

 

[MessiCam]

I hope for the best with Dembele. But all this talk about how Barca would win every single game is just Dembele was always on the field is not rational. He just has not shown enough in the playing time he has gotten. Yes, I would play him in front of Vidal, because I am now convinced that Vidal is the worst player on the team. In the playing time that he is getting, Dembele has to show more. That is the only way he will get the chance to play a lot.

Who said anything about winning every match Dembélé plays? You’re making things up man.

We’re concerned about his integration. He gets a game, plays decent, and then is sent to the bench the very next game. It’s the same with Coutinho, Semedo and Mina.

It also doesn’t help that Valverde thinks it’s a good idea to bed in players when the game is in its frantic stages against parked buses. If Messi can’t break the bus what makes you think Dembélé and Coutinho miraculously can?

You talk about showing more to play more... What has Vidal ever shown? What has Paulinho shown recently? Yet they’re playing ahead of him.