11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[FCBfan22]

I have said a few days ago that to some extent both Messi and Busi are burdens and people jumped on that post.
We are shit without Messi, true.
But on the other hand, with a current Messi you don't have too much tactical options since he wants to play as CAM who drops deep.
So, he is a gift, but tactically, we have only 1-2-3 options.

So, you can't play 433 with him centrally because we will often have no one in attack on the central position.
You can't play 433 with him as a RW, since he doesn't want to play on wings.
So, you can only play some hybrid 433 where he is a Cam, Suarez or someone is a central forward and we have one winger.
Something like Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi plus Suarez-Messi-Dembele from this season.

But since Messi is dropping deep, currently we are forced to have some classic central forward in the box.
The same as how Atletico is way better with Diego Costa drawing players away from Griezmann who plays deeper.

So, Luis can be benched ONLY if Griezmann will play in the box and MOSTLY in the box.
If both Messi and Griezmann will drop deep and if we'll drop Suarez, be prepared for a tons of possession and passing around the box and zero men in the box.

All in all, when you sum it all, EV will probably play:
Suarez
Messi
Coutinho-Rakitic-Busquets-Griezmann (Dembele)

Or, Griezmann in attack sometimes when Suarez/Messi is resting.
Or, a hybrid 433:
Suarez-CAM Messi-Griezmann
Coutinho-Raki-Busi

This one will be possible only on Camp Nou matches.

Since this is Dembele's thread: our team needs a classic CF since Messi is dropping deep and we can't play with Messi far from the box and only 2 wingers (where one of them, Dembele, can't score).
This is why I am telling to people: be prepared for 442 with Suarez-Messi attack or for 433 with Suarez-Messi and "someone". That someone will be Coutinho or Griezmann and not Dembele.

When you sum it all, Dembele won't be a starter in the next season and won't be a key man surely.
About posts how we should drop Suarez in the future: again, then we'll need a young CLASSIC Cf to play in the box.
This Pep's "shit" without classic forwards died and was figured out around 2012, thank God for that.

So, as long as Messi plays for Barca, we'll need a classic CF like Suarez.
After Suarez, we'll need another classic CF.
Only when Messi will be gone, you can try to play a classic 433 with 2 true wingers and with some new classic CF (hopefully a taller technical guy).

Until then, we are "locked" with EV's 442 with Messi-Suarez or with 433 with Messi-Suarez-Griezmann/Coutinho/Dembele.

A sad fact for Barcaforum's fans: Suarez will NOT Be benched anytime soon

Well great. So, you would prefer to have tall strong players, with two defensive liabilities up front. Counters galore. Needless to say that our midfield will be dead again in April, because of constantly defending with 8 players, like we did this year.

Griezmann should be our pressing inside forward, something that Suarez doesn't do. If we play Griezmann as a RM, that's a big waste of his talents.

Dembele can't score? Well... He needs less chances to score than Suarez.

 

[MTL_Barca]

Next season will probably suck for him (and for the viewers) too, but without injuries he should get enough minutes.

After Valverde is sacked we hopefully get a real coach that benches the shit out of (then 32 yo) Suarez and trust our younger players more.

Or maybe Valverde grows some balls over his summer vacation but who am i kidding.

 

[ab739]

Do people still believe valverde is getting sacked after this season lol...... How deluded

 

[henias]

Valverde will fail next season, no doubt about it. Him thoroughly neglecting and mishandling Dembele will be the death of him. Any coach will have no second thoughts about developing and utilising Dembele both tactically and as a player EV just seems like a guy who doesnt know how to use Dembele. Luck will run out for him next season.

Also, anyone who previously think Dembele can't score or isnt a threat in the box, needs to get their heads checked. A technically gifted and electrifying player who has been more effective than any other forwards other than Messi.

 

[Devils]

He'll never get sacked, he's on the last year of his contract.

If he does poorly next season they'll just let him run out his contract and walk away.

We don't sack managers in the midst of the season.

 

[jamrock]

Loan out a player we bought for 140m too funny.

Our club is being ran by idiots if that happens.

If he continues to come off the bench with garbage minutes next season, our club is also being ran by idiots.

He will be our KDB or Mo Salah because we have a sissy man for a manager

 

[MTL_Barca]

Of course EV won't be sacked, we probably just renew his contract in october after unbeaten start and later wonder why we still play like shit and do poor in CL even with him having more time to "develop" his barca. But a man can dream right?

 

[Luftstalag14]

Of course EV won't be sacked, we probably just renew his contract in october after unbeaten start and later wonder why we still play like shit and do poor in CL even with him having more time to "develop" his barca. But a man can dream right?

We won't be unbeaten next season, his luck is going to run out soon.

 

[MessiCam]

I have said a few days ago that to some extent both Messi and Busi are burdens and people jumped on that post.
We are shit without Messi, true.
But on the other hand, with a current Messi you don't have too much tactical options since he wants to play as CAM who drops deep.
So, he is a gift, but tactically, we have only 1-2-3 options.

So, you can't play 433 with him centrally because we will often have no one in attack on the central position.
You can't play 433 with him as a RW, since he doesn't want to play on wings.
So, you can only play some hybrid 433 where he is a Cam, Suarez or someone is a central forward and we have one winger.
Something like Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi plus Suarez-Messi-Dembele from this season.

But since Messi is dropping deep, currently we are forced to have some classic central forward in the box.
The same as how Atletico is way better with Diego Costa drawing players away from Griezmann who plays deeper.

So, Luis can be benched ONLY if Griezmann will play in the box and MOSTLY in the box.
If both Messi and Griezmann will drop deep and if we'll drop Suarez, be prepared for a tons of possession and passing around the box and zero men in the box.

All in all, when you sum it all, EV will probably play:
Suarez
Messi
Coutinho-Rakitic-Busquets-Griezmann (Dembele)

Or, Griezmann in attack sometimes when Suarez/Messi is resting.
Or, a hybrid 433:
Suarez-CAM Messi-Griezmann
Coutinho-Raki-Busi

This one will be possible only on Camp Nou matches.

Since this is Dembele's thread: our team needs a classic CF since Messi is dropping deep and we can't play with Messi far from the box and only 2 wingers (where one of them, Dembele, can't score).
This is why I am telling to people: be prepared for 442 with Suarez-Messi attack or for 433 with Suarez-Messi and "someone". That someone will be Coutinho or Griezmann and not Dembele.

When you sum it all, Dembele won't be a starter in the next season and won't be a key man surely.
About posts how we should drop Suarez in the future: again, then we'll need a young CLASSIC Cf to play in the box.
This Pep's "shit" without classic forwards died and was figured out around 2012, thank God for that.

So, as long as Messi plays for Barca, we'll need a classic CF like Suarez.
After Suarez, we'll need another classic CF.
Only when Messi will be gone, you can try to play a classic 433 with 2 true wingers and with some new classic CF (hopefully a taller technical guy).

Until then, we are "locked" with EV's 442 with Messi-Suarez or with 433 with Messi-Suarez-Griezmann/Coutinho/Dembele.

A sad fact for Barcaforum's fans: Suarez will NOT Be benched anytime soon

Dear me. The idea of playing without a classic centre forward was not some tactical masterpiece by Pep. It was done many times prior to that.

I now know that you haven't been watching Barcelona as long as you say you have because even under Cruyff the CF (Laudrup) was required to assist in midfield by dropping deep.

With Coutinho, Dembele, Messi, Suarez and Griezmann a 4-4-2 is not an option unless you want to play with a crippled midfield. The only way 4 of them play together with any midfield balance is in a 3-3-1-3.

If it has not become obvious by now, Messi and Suarez cannot play together in any system that requires a 4 man defense because Messi doesn't want to play on the wing any longer.

So as for your until then... Until then we will be crippled with a 2 man central midfield.

If Suarez is not benched there will be much more suffering to come. He just cannot function as a sole striker.

 

[FC B]

The amount of shit rumors of Dembele being sold or loaned is just absurd, that would be plain idiotic, so stupid I'd be amazed even from this fucktard board.

 

[BBZ8800]

Dear me. The idea of playing without a classic centre forward was not some tactical masterpiece by Pep. It was done many times prior to that.

I now know that you haven't been watching Barcelona as long as you say you have because even under Cruyff the CF (Laudrup) was required to assist in midfield by dropping deep.

With Coutinho, Dembele, Messi, Suarez and Griezmann a 4-4-2 is not an option unless you want to play with a crippled midfield. The only way 4 of them play together with any midfield balance is in a 3-3-1-3.

If it has not become obvious by now, Messi and Suarez cannot play together in any system that requires a 4 man defense because Messi doesn't want to play on the wing any longer.

So as for your until then... Until then we will be crippled with a 2 man central midfield.

If Suarez is not benched there will be much more suffering to come. He just cannot function as a sole striker.

I was around 10 in Cruijff's days, mate.
I have watched a few matches on a TV.
Sorry for not knowing all tactical principles from then

So, Cruijff played without a classic Cf.
It worked for some time, and then it stopped working.
And the whole world (except Cruijff) and all other Barca's coaches played with 1 or 2 classic Cfs.

Then Pep started that thing again. And Spain.
And it worked for a few years, and as always, it stopped working.

And basically, now you want to go back to it, even though the whole world plays with a CF and even though it clearly stopped working.

I mean, 100s of things have changed since Pep's days:
1. we had Xavi-Iniesta-Busi
We don't have them anymore.
2. we had young Messi and Cfs who could switch positions.
Messi is 31 now.
3. teams didn't figure out Pep's system yet back then.
It is a different story today.
4. back then we played with 3 best midfielders in the world, and we had Xavi, the brain of TikiTaka.
Today we have just 3 random midfielders, all of them turtles.
Also, back then we played with a 3men midfield consisted of 3 best midfielders in the world, all of them on their prime, and opponents didn't know how to stop TikiTaka.
Plus we had a 4th "false" midfielder in Dani Alves.
Again, today you have 3 random midfielders, the opponents have figured out TikiTaka, we don't have "a false midfielder" in Alves. We have Roberto or Semedo (ouch).
Also, Messi is 31 and he will not switch positions like 10 years ago.

So, even if you try to copy that Pep's style today with these players, you'll probably get some 50% quality copy, in the best case scenario.
That bad copy of Pep's style won't be any better (or worse) even than EV's 442.

Majority of you are acting as if that 433 is some magical style, godlike system.
This will sound harsh: but onedimensional 433 with Messi and Pep won only 2 CLs in 4 years.
If that onedimensional system is SO GOOD as you claim, why is RM's multidimensional (in attack) 433 on the verge of winning a 4th CL in 5 years then?

So, instead of trying to upgrade our system, you guys want to go back to a system which is proven as outdated and onedimensional?
And yet, even if you copy that outdated system, you will get only a bad copy of that system since we have way weaker players than back then.

Some people often say on this forum how our board is not proactive.
What to say about our fans who will forever live in 2009-2011 and in "a mighty Pep's 433"?

Pick some good elements from the past, add some new things and move on.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

I don't know what the club will do, but I have no faith in them being able to strengthen the squad or the midfield regardless of whether Dembele is sold for a big fee or not. We've talked about improving the midfield for three years now and all they've done is bring in Andre Gomes and Arda Turan.

Most likely we'll still have Rakitic and Suarez in the Starting Lineup until we hit the wall like in 2013/14. The next time we'll win the CL will be once the entire squad is uprooted.

Until then, playing good football, playing some youth and winning the league is everything this squad can achieve and we can hope for and I'm not even sure we'll do the first two points with Valverde.

On paper Gomes and Turan were good solutions. Not boards fault they couldn't hack it. Like you though, I don't have faith that the staff will fix our squad on a systematic level. Best case scenario, we stop another leak.

Pep would get the best in Dembele not this coach.. damn i want EV gone with every bit of bone in me..

Does EV have a history of developing youth academy and newer first team players? We need to use that as a reference point.

 

[MessiCam]

I was around 10 in Cruijff's days, mate.
I have watched a few matches on a TV.
Sorry for not knowing all tactical principles from then

So, Cruijff played without a classic Cf.
It worked for some time, and then it stopped working.
And the whole world (except Cruijff) and all other Barca's coaches played with 1 or 2 classic Cfs.

Then Pep started that thing again. And Spain.
And it worked for a few years, and as always, it stopped working.

And basically, now you want to go back to it, even though the whole world plays with a CF and even though it clearly stopped working.

I mean, 100s of things have changed since Pep's days:
1. we had Xavi-Iniesta-Busi
We don't have them anymore.
2. we had young Messi and Cfs who could switch positions.
Messi is 31 now.
3. teams didn't figure out Pep's system yet back then.
It is a different story today.
4. back then we played with 3 best midfielders in the world, and we had Xavi, the brain of TikiTaka.
Today we have just 3 random midfielders, all of them turtles.
Also, back then we played with a 3men midfield consisted of 3 best midfielders in the world, all of them on their prime, and opponents didn't know how to stop TikiTaka.
Plus we had a 4th "false" midfielder in Dani Alves.
Again, today you have 3 random midfielders, the opponents have figured out TikiTaka, we don't have "a false midfielder" in Alves. We have Roberto or Semedo (ouch).
Also, Messi is 31 and he will not switch positions like 10 years ago.

So, even if you try to copy that Pep's style today with these players, you'll probably get some 50% quality copy, in the best case scenario.
That bad copy of Pep's style won't be any better (or worse) even than EV's 442.

Majority of you are acting as if that 433 is some magical style, godlike system.
This will sound harsh: but onedimensional 433 with Messi and Pep won only 2 CLs in 4 years.
If that onedimensional system is SO GOOD as you claim, why is RM's multidimensional (in attack) 433 on the verge of winning a 4th CL in 5 years then?

So, instead of trying to upgrade our system, you guys want to go back to a system which is proven as outdated and onedimensional?
And yet, even if you copy that outdated system, you will get only a bad copy of that system since we have way weaker players than back then.

Some people often say on this forum how our board is not proactive.
What to say about our fans who will forever live in 2009-2011 and in "a mighty Pep's 433"?

Pick some good elements from the past, add some new things and move on.

Again, 4-3-3 was not Pep’s master plan. Barcelona have employed a 4-3-3 or a 3-3-1-3 for best part of 3 decades... Only van Gaal employed a 3-5-2.

Also, again, the 4-3-3 False 9 didn’t stop working... 2013/14 was an off colour Messi due to a significant injury which kept him out for some 2 months and this has been taken to mean that it stopped working. Prior to that he and Barcelona were banging in goals left, right and centre and it’s still happening when he is allowed to play in that position.

And why do you keep bringing Madrid into this? Maybe you should support them... Madrid are a seriously flawed team that has gotten lucky in all of their last 3 Champions League wins. I mean seriously lucky it’s almost absurd.

Also, the Champions League being used as a barometer for what is supposed to be a good team is beyond stupid. It is still a cup competition, although a glamorous one, that requires various things to click to win it.

 

[xXKonan]

Does EV have a history of developing youth academy and newer first team players? We need to use that as a reference point.

He does but at Bilbao, but this is Bilbao where they only bring in Basque only players or develop from within.

 

[Maxim4]

the irreel performances of Dembélé against Mamelodi Sundowns
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jcazlk_7BDI